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Brewers fire manager

Da Coach said:
What? Where did I say anything even remotely close to "wins mean everything for a pitcher"?

Sorry, but I haven't backed off anything. I have only proven my original point that the Brewers starting pitching going into this season was not as strong as some here think it was. I merely said that they did not have a single pitcher who had won more than 12 games for them, and despite claims by another poster that I was wrong and they did, I was in fact right about that.

I personally don't care one bit what experts think, but to show that I am not the only person in the world who think the Brewers have had a fine season, and in fact overachieved beyond most people's expectations. Yost was on track for a 90+ win season, had the 2nd best record in the NL, and was on track to make the playoffs. But after a few losses, everyone wants him gone. Now the team in in major turmoil, this late-season firing has thrown their team into chaos, and it will be difficult for them to find stability now and keep from missing the playoffs all together.

Hey, I couldn't care less what the Brewers do, as I am not a fan. If Brewer fans are happy to get rid of Yost, fine, but why anyone would want to have this happen at this crucial point of a highly successful season, I don't understand. If anyone thinks switching managers now is good for this team, good luck.
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By continuing to point to the lack of 12+ game winners, you are implying that wins are an important stat for pitchers. In reality, as I said before, a pitcher's W-L record is possibly the most pointless and overrated stat in all of sports. So much of it has to do with the team surrounding the pitcher, and as I have already stated, an average offensive ballclub would have netted Ben Sheets a 19-7 record in 2004 as opposed to the 12-14 record he had with the Brewers.

When I posted this information before, and you completely ignored it, I assumed that you had backed off that stat and realized the irrelevance of a pitchers record. I guess you haven't.

Again, they weren't the same team they were a few weeks back. A complete late season trainwreck does not make for a successful season. They were going to miss the playoffs altogether with Yost -- we're not just talking about "a few losses" here. This was an utterly abysmal stretch of baseball against good and bad teams alike. The team was failing in every aspect of the game. Furthermore, most Brewer fans I know have wanted Yost gone since the end of last season. We weren't exactly in love with the guy two weeks ago. The general feeling is that we were winning in spite of the guy, not because of him.

Also, I didn't realize that you spend time in the Brewers' clubhouse regularly. How are you qualified to say that it has "thrown them into chaos?"

And to say we are on track to make the playoffs when we blew a 5 1/2 game lead in 15 days is completely insane. If not for the Astros getting completely screwed by MLB last weekend, we'd probably have better odds of finishing third in the division than we would of making the playoffs.

You are right about one thing. This is a crucial point in the season. That's why a move needed to be made, to light a fire under the team before it's too late.
 
Scouter said:
Considering he got fired with two weeks left during a season in which the team was going to win 90-plus games and was tied for the lead in the wild card and now a majority of the fan base says he should've been gone sooner, I don't think it's a stretch to say Yost is one of the worst managers of a good team in the last 15 years or so.
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Exactly. As I said before, I don't think this team overachieved by any stretch. I think they did to an extent last year, but all the young players were now a year more experienced, and the feeling in Milwaukee was that this team had a very good shot to contend.

Honestly, Dusty Baker is the only name that comes to mind when I think of recent managers that have done less with more.
 
In 2005, the White Sox had a 20 game lead over Cleveland with 2 months to go in the season. Then through a series of similae bad managing moves, the lead shrunk to 1/2 game before the Sox went on a hot streak the last 2 weeks of the season to win easily. Of course they went on to win the World Series. If they had panicked and fired Ozzie Guillen when they looked like they were about to blow their lead, I am sure they wouldn't have won the World Series.

I see this Brewers move as similar to that 2005 Sox season. People can nitpick over every little decision he's made and blame Yost all they want, but overall I think he has done a good job and would have gotten them to the playoffs. There, with the 2 strong starters, who knows how far they could have gone. I would have liked to see him get the chance.
But by changing managers now, I think they have sacrificed any chance they had to get to the playoffs.

Do you think the change will help them this season?
 
Da Coach said:
In 2005, the White Sox had a 20 game lead over Cleveland with 2 months to go in the season. Then through a series of similae bad managing moves, the lead shrunk to 1/2 game before the Sox went on a hot streak the last 2 weeks of the season to win easily. Of course they went on to win the World Series. If they had panicked and fired Ozzie Guillen when they looked like they were about to blow their lead, I am sure they wouldn't have won the World Series.

I see this Brewers move as similar to that 2005 Sox season. People can nitpick over every little decision he's made and blame Yost all they want, but overall I think he has done a good job and would have gotten them to the playoffs. There, with the 2 strong starters, who knows how far they could have gone. I would have liked to see him get the chance.
But by changing managers now, I think they have sacrificed any chance they had to get to the playoffs.

Do you think the change will help them this season?
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Yes, I do think the change can only help them. If you happened to read the Baseball Prospectus article, I side fully with the author. And in fact, as I already stated, I think they showed more heart last night than in the previous 14 games behind.

And in your example, the White Sox never lost the lead. In our case, the lead has already been blown and time is running out for a recovery. In addition, the precedent of last year's blown lead is already there. Based on previous history, and the way things were going so far this September, there's a lot more reason to believe Yost was not going to get them to the playoffs. Your thought that he would have gotten them to the playoffs is based on blind faith and not reason.

As a Cubs fan, I'm sure you would have liked to see him get the chance to continue managing the Brewers. Actually, you're probably just concerned that the Brewers will play the Cubs tougher with a competent manager.

Oh, and you still haven't responded to my comments about wins being a useless way of measuring a pitcher's worth. Or my comments about payroll for that matter.
 
Wins are not a totally useless measure of a pitcher, but they don't always reflect their true value. A lot of factors need to be taken into consideration.
 
Da Coach said:
Wins are not a totally useless measure of a pitcher, but they don't always reflect their true value. A lot of factors need to be taken into consideration.
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Meh... close enough.

At any rate, I believe I've proven the point that the Brewers have not, in fact, "overachieved" this year.

And hey, they won last night!
 
Will the Brewers make a push to resign CC Sabathia?
Their problem is that their other ace pitcher, Ben Sheets, is also a free agent this winter. I don't see that a small market team will be able to sign both.
 
Da Coach said:
Will the Brewers make a push to resign CC Sabathia?
Their problem is that their other ace pitcher, Ben Sheets, is also a free agent this winter. I don't see that a small market team will be able to sign both.
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And we're not going to try to sign both. Sheets is gone unless injuries drop his value way down and we can get him for like a one-year deal. I'm sure that won't happen, though... some pitching-hungry team will stupidly throw money at him. Good riddance to a pitcher who was never able to show up in big games. Injuries and the bad timing of them weren't necessarily his fault but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't earn his money in Milwaukee.

As for CC, I'm not getting my hopes up, but it looks like Milwaukee's going to make a legitimate run at trying to bring him back, and CC wouldn't be opposed to coming back. Of course, some of that could be talk, but still... at least it's a possibility. http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/ne...t_id=3595074&vkey=news_mil&fext=.jsp&c_id=mil
 
Yes, I saw that. But usually when a player says something like, "it's not about the money", he is still likely to go where the offer is the highest.

There are a few exceptions. Paul Konerko re-signed with the White Sox after the 2005 World Championship season, for several million dollars less than the Dodgers offered him. He was smart to do so. If he had signed with the Dodgers, he would be another in a long line of free-agent signings they have had (Andruw Jones, Juan Pierre, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Schmidt, Mike Lieberthal, Mike Sweeny, etc.) that didn't work out.

In the 3 years since he re-signed, he has had 1 very good season, one average season, and in 2008 he was awful. If he had been with another team, he would have been booed off the field, but White Sox fans stuck by him, and he is still well liked and supported.
Year.......BA......HR.....RBI
2006..... .313 ...35.....113
2007..... .259....31......90
2008..... .240....22......62

Because of his history of helping the 2005 team to the World Championship, he will always be supported by the Sox fans. You would think players would think of this before they take a little more money to play in another city where they better produce or they will be villified.
 
Da Coach said:
Will the Brewers make a push to resign CC Sabathia?
Their problem is that their other ace pitcher, Ben Sheets, is also a free agent this winter. I don't see that a small market team will be able to sign both.
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They may be a small market team but they drew in excess of 3 million this year. That would put them up w/ most of the top teams w/ the exception of the Dodger's Yankee's, Red Sox and now the Angels. Can they resign CC is a possible far reach but then other then these 4 teams who will be able to touch him? The Brew Crew has just as good of a chance as any of the other teams in their size market-like the Cubs & Cards. Having a friend that plays for the Brewer's makes me hope that they get CC but being a Card's fan I hope the Cards sign both CC and Shouse.
 
basketball nut said:
They may be a small market team but they drew in excess of 3 million this year. That would put them up w/ most of the top teams w/ the exception of the Dodger's Yankee's, Red Sox and now the Angels. Can they resign CC is a possible far reach but then other then these 4 teams who will be able to touch him? The Brew Crew has just as good of a chance as any of the other teams in their size market-like the Cubs & Cards. Having a friend that plays for the Brewer's makes me hope that they get CC but being a Card's fan I hope the Cards sign both CC and Shouse.
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I wouldn't count on the the Brewers or (especially) Cardinals on signing Sabathia unless he takes a serious discount.
 
CC is signing with the Yankees! They will offer him a boat load. They want to win and will be moving into a new home.
I hate the Yanks btw.....
 
The Yankees would be a good guess. They have a nearly unlimited amount of money, and their current pitching staff has a lot of holes in it.
 
I bet he signs with the Mets. With a declining Pedro, an inconsistent 2-5, and an OVERWHELMING amount of pressure to win next year, I think the Mets seem like the obvious choice. A Santana/Sabathia 1-2 punch would be deadly!
 
I doubt CC wants to go back to the American League. Yeah the Yankees are sure to offer lots of money, but I bet he chooses to stay in the NL. As a Cubs fan I can only hope he comes 90 miles south.
 
Scouter said:
I wouldn't count on the the Brewers or (especially) Cardinals on signing Sabathia unless he takes a serious discount.
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I dunno, Mozleiak just signed Lohse for 10 Mil a year... And the Cards have the advantage of having large market income in a small-market and the best fans in baseball (come on guys it's why they have so many players taking home-team discounts and St. Louis is dubbed 'Baseball Town USA'). Do I actually think the Cards will sign CC? No, that's not really a need of theirs. They have Carpenter, Wainwright, Lohse, and Wellemeyer signed, and maybe Looper. But Mozeliak has made it a point he's willing to spend (different from Jockety). I actually don't like this as a Cards fan - I took pride in building up our own players - but it's the truth. I just hope Mozeliak is smart enough to sign Duncan and La Russa long-term...
 
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