mediocrity

[versace4pres]

And Im asking you which year was our accomplishments so far below what you expected other than one?

The first 3 years have a lot to do with that record looking low as well. Last four years: 86-56 (40-32). Shows improvement to me, not a program with no direction....and don't give me that some of those wins were against bad team in an ABC tourny, because we did beat some decent programs like Virginia and such in those tournys, a win is a win just like a loss is a loss. Plus JL could have an inflated record if he scheduled like some other schools, but he chooses to challenge his players, which is better for them in the long run. Other things go into a record than just strictly wins and losses. Like where the program was when the coach started and how tough the games he is scheduling are. I see a program that is improving in the last few years from where it was over the first few, now give it a few years to see if we can take the next step and improve some more. Some say they will do that, but then really give it no chance because they doubt it will happen. JL has stepped up the program a level since he started (comparing early JL years to later JL years), I have confidence he will raise it to the next level as well. It is a process that won't happen overnight.

How long are your nights? You must live WAAAAYYYY up north! In the private sector, I can assure you the evenings are much shorter. Now take out the Presbyterians of the world in your 86-56 and then tell me we are headed in the right direction.

 

[shaunguth]

Look at all the other teams in the conference...


We're already one of the last to never win a tournament in St. Louis (Evansville, Wichita St), and we're getting real close to everyone having won a Valley championship since the last time we won one.


Its beyond time for all of us to celebrate in St. Louis and a conference regular season title would be nice as well...


The question is when? I just can't see it.

I always thought the ultimate goal of any college basketball team was to make the NCAA tournament and maybe even win a game or two. How many Valley teams have had any such success? It's beyond time for the rest of the Valley to start pulling their weight on a national level.

The question is when? I just can't see it.

 

[lefty]

I never said first 3 and last 3, I remember saying early and later years which includes the middle two. We spent 3 years being pretty bad, then 4 pretty decent years, now it is time for the next step this year and next year is what I'm saying.

Did we go from bad in year one to Sweet 16 in year 2? No it took a few years. The next step will too, and if it does not happen in the next 2 to 3 years then that is fine, but until then wait and see before judging is all I'm saying. Not many seem to want to wait and see like it is easy to just transition into Butler or even Creighton. If he was able to take one step, I think he will be able to take the next, but we will see. The Sweet 16 was step one, then he needed a few years to get recruits with that before step two, now is that time. We have a ton of talent over the next 2 years and hopefully beyond, but you have to remember that talent is still trying to come together as 2/5 of our starters were not on the court with everybody else last year, and TB didn't exactly get a ton of playing time. Yes this team needs more attitude, but I think most are dismissing them way too early before they get a chance to gell. I think they will gell, step up, and be fine.

Someone said earlier in this thread they wished I was their professor because I like mediocrity or something of that effect. Well on a 30 question test would you like me to assume you got a 56% if you only got 5 of out the first 9? No you might have done good on the rest, so you would probably want me to wait and see wouldn't you?

Ok...I reread and understand. I still disagree though. There just isn't consistency right now going forward. Yes it seems like we have some good recruits. We have said that every year. Recruiting isn't a problem in my opinion.
I do agree it's still early and they have time to right the ship. I think some just don't think we have the fortitude to do it.
And if we are now going to play 3-4 guys 35 plus minutes a game we may run out of gas toward the end of the season

 

[BUfan14]

I think what people are missing is I said this year and next year ARE THAT TIME, there is no more waiting, but give this year and next year a chance!!! I said it was a process yes, but I also said the end of that process is about here and if nothing changes is these 2 years then evaluation is fine. What I am saying is that people are dismissing everything before this year and next year. People seem to be saying ok i'll give him this year and next year but then go on to complain about everything he does and say he needs to change everything, well then you aren't really giving him two more years. Are there things he needs to do better? Yes I have said that, but at the same time every loss does not mean season over and start over by changing EVERYTHING. This could still be a good season, because this group of players is really all just getting a chance to gell with 3/5 of our starters getting little to no playing time last year. I am not asking people to wait any longer as everyone seems to be saying, I'm asking people when they say they will give JL this year and next, to really do so til the end before demanding change and questioning everything. I haven't seen but one year to this point that had been hugely disappointing to me, so in my eyes there is no reason to be so doubtful until these 2 years prove otherwise, as it is time for the next step NOW as I have said but that has been ignored in my posts. Give this season a chance!!!

 

[Da Coach]

Let me inject a slight bit of reality.
Bradley, under Jim Les, has had winning records for each of the past 5 seasons, despite playing almost every one of those seasons with their leading scorer, or one or 2 of their top players injured for major portions of the seasons.

OK, you may now resume your bashing.

 

[SaintLouBrave22]

Let me inject a slight bit of reality.
Bradley, under Jim Les, has had winning records for each of the past 5 seasons, despite playing almost every one of those seasons with their leading scorer, or one or 2 of their top players injured for major portions of the seasons.

OK, you may now resume your bashing.

I usually agree w/ your insight DC, but how many years can we continue to use the "injury" excuse?

Everyone has injuries DC, and I mean everyone. The good teams are those that are coached through those injuries to be tougher.


Just take the Cincinnati football team for example...

Brian Kelly managed to play 3 games with 5+ starters missing on the offensive side including their all-am QB yet managed to win each game...


And they certainly didn't have trouble w/ the Loyola's or Idaho State's of college football.



At some point, the excuses have got to stop, injuries or otherwise.


Saying "man, you know what we could do if we were healthy"....


Thats just a different way of saying "wait til next year"...



And some of us are real tired of waiting!

 

[Buesch N Chips]

Let me inject a slight bit of reality.
Bradley, under Jim Les, has had winning records for each of the past 5 seasons, despite playing almost every one of those seasons with their leading scorer, or one or 2 of their top players injured for major portions of the seasons.

OK, you may now resume your bashing.

I think that's important coach, and it's very true. I think what is frustrating is that the guys who should be leading us to victory are actually causing the defeats. Seasoned guys, experienced guys. It's not like Eastman was out there for the first time screwing everything up. Singh, Warren, Roberts, Brown, and Maniscalco ended the disaster which was the Loyola game. You can't get much more experience than that. Those guys missed free throws, threw balls away, crumbled on defense. Who will lead us to victory when the other team makes their run?

 

[ER3]

Let me inject a slight bit of reality.
Bradley, under Jim Les, has had winning records for each of the past 5 seasons, despite playing almost every one of those seasons with their leading scorer, or one or 2 of their top players injured for major portions of the seasons.

OK, you may now resume your bashing.

If you lower your expectations enough and let your laundry list of excuses justify the mediocrity, you can never be disappointed. Whatever gets you through the night, I suppose.

I expect far more from this basketball program than a string of mid-pack Valley finishes and seasons that are slightly above .500...but...to each his own.

 

[Buesch N Chips]

I expect far more from this basketball program than a string of mid-pack Valley finishes and seasons that are slightly above .500

But why? How much of a precedent is there for us to contend year in and year out and win 25 games? When has it ever happened consistently? You could make the case that if you take away Hersey Hawkins, we've always been basically a middle of the pack team, some years better, some years worse. Sure we all hope for better, but you can put hope in one hand and.....well you know the rest.

 

[Da Coach]

If you lower your expectations enough and let your laundry list of excuses justify the mediocrity, you can never be disappointed. Whatever gets you through the night, I suppose.

I expect far more from this basketball program than a string of mid-pack Valley finishes and seasons that are slightly above .500...but...to each his own.

Just stating facts. I don't see any statement of expectations or excuses in my post, but nice try, anyway.

Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of mediocre:
: of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance.

As I stated, In the last 5 years, Jim Les teams have had a winning record. Their compiled record is 91-60. If you consider that "slightly above .500", you would clearly not be accurate.
During that stretch, Bradley has not played patsies like some MVC teams have. If they had, their record would be even better.
Bradley's Strength of Schedule, when averaged over the past 5 seasons, has been easily the #1 SOS of all MVC teams, and their RPI's are as follows-
2005-2006- 33
2006-2007- 38
2007-2008- 105
2008-2009- 98
2009-2010- 110
Bradley's average of those last 5 years' RPIs (77) is barely behind UNI's 5 year average (67) which is the best in the MVC.

I realize Bradley hasn't won any national championships, but I don't consider this mediocre, either. Just sayin'...


Bash away...

 

[ER3]

Just stating facts. I don't see any statement of expectations or excuses in my post, but nice try, anyway.

Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of mediocre:
: of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance.

As I stated, In the last 5 years, Jim Les teams have had a winning record. Their compiled record is 91-60. If you consider that "slightly above .500", you would clearly not be accurate.
During that stretch, Bradley has not played patsies like some MVC teams have. If they had, their record would be even better.
Bradley's Strength of Schedule, when averaged over the past 5 seasons, has been easily the #1 SOS of all MVC teams, and their RPI's are as follows-
2005-2006- 33
2006-2007- 38
2007-2008- 105
2008-2009- 98
2009-2010- 110
Bradley's average of those last 5 years' RPIs (77) is barely behind UNI's 5 year average (67) which is the best in the MVC.

I realize Bradley hasn't won any national championships, but I don't consider this mediocre, either. Just sayin'...


Bash away...

Like I said, it's all a matter of personal perspective.
You consider last year a 'success', so be it...
I consider a 21-17 season to be one "of moderate quality"...I consider 4th, 5th, and 6th place finishes in conference to be results "of moderate quality"...a.k.a., mediocre...that's just my perspective on it all...

Nobody in their right mind would expect a national championship here at BU, so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything...but thanks for adding that.

 

[BUfan14]

Just stating facts. I don't see any statement of expectations or excuses in my post, but nice try, anyway.

Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of mediocre:
: of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance.

As I stated, In the last 5 years, Jim Les teams have had a winning record. Their compiled record is 91-60. If you consider that "slightly above .500", you would clearly not be accurate.
During that stretch, Bradley has not played patsies like some MVC teams have. If they had, their record would be even better.
Bradley's Strength of Schedule, when averaged over the past 5 seasons, has been easily the #1 SOS of all MVC teams, and their RPI's are as follows-
2005-2006- 33
2006-2007- 38
2007-2008- 105
2008-2009- 98
2009-2010- 110
Bradley's average of those last 5 years' RPIs (77) is barely behind UNI's 5 year average (67) which is the best in the MVC.

I realize Bradley hasn't won any national championships, but I don't consider this mediocre, either. Just sayin'...


Bash away...

Thank you DaCoach, someone who agrees with me! This program is not completely where I want it at either, but JL has raised it a step up from the start, and I feel the next step is coming but takes time. It has definitely not been mediocre. I think we will see that step up in the next 2 years, but people are already dismissing it as though we will not take that step because of 9 games.

He has only had one disappointing season so far which a lot of was bad luck and still turned out average excuses or not! People act like every year he has finished way below what he is suppose to have. The last 4-5 years have been good, albeit not great, but I think we will take that step.

What evidence is there that nothing is working and that we will not take that step in terms of disappointing seasons not just individual games besides one year???

 

[ER3]

But why? How much of a precedent is there for us to contend year in and year out and win 25 games? When has it ever happened consistently? You could make the case that if you take away Hersey Hawkins, we've always been basically a middle of the pack team, some years better, some years worse. Sure we all hope for better, but you can put hope in one hand and.....well you know the rest.

I don't really care about precedents...I refuse to simply resign myself to hoping that we somehow avoid the play-in game every year simply because that's an easier path to take...

The sustained successes of programs like Creighton and SIU was what I thought this program was aspiring toward...rather than just crossing our fingers and hoping we could be slightly better than Evansville or Indy State each year... This, I thought, was far more than just an empty, unfounded hope that a lot of us shared...but maybe it's just me.

 

[longtimelistener]

I don't really care about precedents...I refuse to simply resign myself to hoping that we somehow avoid the play-in game every year simply because that's an easier path to take...

The sustained successes of programs like Creighton and SIU was what I thought this program was aspiring toward...rather than just crossing our fingers and hoping we could be slightly better than Evansville or Indy State each year... This, I thought, was far more than just an empty, unfounded hope that a lot of us shared...but maybe it's just me.

It's not just you, dude.

 

[TheAsianSensation]

Ok, the more I look at this, here's the thing:

The criteria we generally use to define success and failure contradict each other. We have several ways to judge a coach. In judging Les, these criteria directly contradict each other.

We made just 1 NCAA tourney in the 8 years. Average. But that was a Sweet 16 year. Very very very good. In terms of NCAA tourney criteria, he has succeeded quite well despite making it only once

We have not finished in the top 3 of the conference standings in 8 years. Failing marks.

We have not won the conference tourney, with one finals appearance in 8 years. Failing marks.

4 straight winning seasons. Consistency is invaluable. Les passes with flying colors in this regard.

Likewise, 4 straight postseasons, but the last 2 only happened because the new tournaments were created. Les is average in this respect. The streak of 20-win seasons also falls in this category.

National relevance: We're getting better. We're one of the more respected mid-major teams, IMO. A plus here.

Scheduling: A+++++++++++++++++ job here. Pretty obvious.

Developing individual players: We turned POB into a lottery pick and we have guys playing overseason. A plus here.


So there you have it. What happens when you've done very well in certain aspects yet so horribly in other aspects? Differing opinions about what matters most. Arguments. Decisions as to what is more important. In other words, the last few days on this forum :lol:

 

[Da Coach]

So would you categorize all those accomplishments as mediocre?
That's all I'm saying. I think, considering everything in the last few years, this qualifies as above average, and a little better than mediocre.

 

[BUfan14]

Ok, the more I look at this, here's the thing:

The criteria we generally use to define success and failure contradict each other. We have several ways to judge a coach. In judging Les, these criteria directly contradict each other.

We made just 1 NCAA tourney in the 8 years. Average. But that was a Sweet 16 year. Very very very good. In terms of NCAA tourney criteria, he has succeeded quite well despite making it only once

We have not finished in the top 3 of the conference standings in 8 years. Failing marks.

We have not won the conference tourney, with one finals appearance in 8 years. Failing marks.

4 straight winning seasons. Consistency is invaluable. Les passes with flying colors in this regard.

Likewise, 4 straight postseasons, but the last 2 only happened because the new tournaments were created. Les is average in this respect. The streak of 20-win seasons also falls in this category.

National relevance: We're getting better. We're one of the more respected mid-major teams, IMO. A plus here.

Scheduling: A+++++++++++++++++ job here. Pretty obvious.

Developing individual players: We turned POB into a lottery pick and we have guys playing overseason. A plus here.


So there you have it. What happens when you've done very well in certain aspects yet so horribly in other aspects? Differing opinions about what matters most. Arguments. Decisions as to what is more important. In other words, the last few days on this forum :lol:

I agree with everything in this post actually! The only thing that really needs to get better is the conference finishes both regular season and tourny! I think they will based on the talent coming in, others think it won't. But with all the potential and depth on the next 3 to 4 years teams really, if we still can't do better in conference without any more NCAA tourny runs then I will look at things. But I think things are looking up until then and JL has done a better than average job improving the program and bringing in talent, and really putting us back into respectablility! JL has more positives on that list than negatives!

 

[bigdaddystuck]

IMO we have been a slightly above average team in JL's tenure as coach. I like the athleticism that has been brought in, and agree that recruiting is not a problem. I do think that there is a lack of cohesion at times. Where that comes from....lack of experience in the coaching staff, egos(players and coaches)...I am not sure.

IMO it is not so much that we have lost the last 2 home games, but the way we lost them. I always tell my players that I can live with a loss, if we have given 100% effort and have done all that we could. The last 2 home games have not shown that effort, IMO.

That said, the teams we have lost to have not really been horrible bottom feeder teams. The non-con is to get us ready for the conference season. If the team does the right things and learns from these last 2 games,then things will work themselves out and good things will happen.

 

[TheAsianSensation]

So would you categorize all those accomplishments as mediocre?
That's all I'm saying. I think, considering everything in the last few years, this qualifies as above average, and a little better than mediocre.

Assuming you're referring to my post --

The point is that there's a lot of different categories, and different categories carry different importances with different people. Some only care about the NCAA and getting into position for that tournament. Some only care about the conference finish and then if anything happens in the NCAA, all the better. And more than any other coach I can think of right now, Les has an overall profile where he has greatly succeeded in many areas and failed spectacularly in others.

I could offer my personal opinion on what category is most important, but that wasn't the point of the post I'm trying to get at why we have such wild fluctuation in the evaluation of Les.

 

[BUfan14]

IMO it is not so much that we have lost the last 2 home games, but the way we lost them. I always tell my players that I can live with a loss, if we have given 100% effort and have done all that we could. The last 2 home games have not shown that effort, IMO.

That said, the teams we have lost to have not really been horrible bottom feeder teams. The non-con is to get us ready for the conference season. If the team does the right things and learns from these last 2 games,then things will work themselves out and good things will happen.

100% agree! Our non-con season will have prepared us just as much or more than any other Valley team for the conference season! Hopefully we will have that advantage. Not good losses for sure, but not bad teams either, let's make up for it with a great conference run!!!

I also agree with DaCoach about our accomplishments definitely being above average!