DeltaBrave03
New member
Not really a suprise, but glad to see he came clean and can now focus on helping the cards this season.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607
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Big Mac admits to steroids
- Thread starter DeltaBrave03
- Start date
DeltaBrave03
New member
Yeah it should be interesting with him an Palmeiro both being on the ballot next year.
tornado
New member
was it illegal when he did it?
btw -- some insiders have testified to anywhere from 50% (Caminiti) to 80%-85% (Canseco)
of major leaguers have taken steroids...and done so regularly...and likely close to 100% of all the sluggers and power hitters.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1988843
http://futureupdate.wordpress.com/2...eball-rife-with-genetically-enhanced-players/
and others with expertise have said for 15 years that this is almost certainly the case looking at the body habitus
and performances of the players......
so - I guess I have to wonder just who this surprises?? and why have people been so reluctant to accept
that most of MLB is doing it instead of thinking of it as a rarity?
btw -- some insiders have testified to anywhere from 50% (Caminiti) to 80%-85% (Canseco)
of major leaguers have taken steroids...and done so regularly...and likely close to 100% of all the sluggers and power hitters.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1988843
http://futureupdate.wordpress.com/2...eball-rife-with-genetically-enhanced-players/
and others with expertise have said for 15 years that this is almost certainly the case looking at the body habitus
and performances of the players......
so - I guess I have to wonder just who this surprises?? and why have people been so reluctant to accept
that most of MLB is doing it instead of thinking of it as a rarity?
Illegal in baseball - no
Illegal in the US - yes
He's not getting in the HOF. Baseball writers are 8---> heads. Just look at Jay Mariotti.
Baseball is barely a sport IMO, and I don't have a big problem with steroids in baseball.
Agreed, I can't decide whats more fun to do, watch grass grow, paint dry or baseball.
tornado
New member
illegal in the US?...well, we will get into a semantic issue, but steroids in and of themselves are NOT illegal and.......taking them is NOT illegal...
not by a long shot...but therein lies a fairly tricky issue...
that there are a lot of things about steroids that ARE illegal,
but just taking them is NOT!!
The taking of some "steroids" is not only fully legal, but actually somewhat common....if properly prescribed under medical supervision, and taken from legitimate suppliers and sources such as pharmacies.
In fact lots of women are given commonly available anabolic steroids after pregnancy just to prevent painful lactation if they have already decided they are not going to nurse..and some people with muscular and bone marrow disorders are given anabolic steroids for their conditions, and millions of men take various forms of testosterone in shots, patches, etc...for hormone replacement all quite legally!
http://www.webmd.com/erectile-dysfunction/testosterone-replacement-therapy
but I do concede that the use of anabolic steroids, in a medically unsupervised fashion, purely for the result of getting bigger or improved athletic performance is quite unadvised and unethical with the medical profession, but I really doubt it is illegal most places....
............which of course explains why most guys like Bonds, Canseco, McGwire...have never been arrested nor ever been in jail..
the illegal issue here is threefold...
--if you sign an agreement or testify that you are not using them, then it's found out you lied (especially under oath), then that, of course, is illegal. (this is the issue of perjury that got Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, etc. into trouble)
--if you are engaged in the illegal and unlicensed manufacture, supply, delivery, sale, etc...of steroids, then you have likely broken some laws (the Balco people were NOT licensed to make or sell them and thus they broke plenty of laws)
--if you defraud someone in this regard by using the drugs to win competitions
Take note, that perhaps the MOST prominently punished athlete in this regard was Marion Jones...but her violation was that she lied to TWO grand juries who were investigating the illegal manufacture of the drugs...and she was NEVER prosecuted for taking them...and I doubt many ever have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Jones
not by a long shot...but therein lies a fairly tricky issue...
that there are a lot of things about steroids that ARE illegal,
but just taking them is NOT!!
The taking of some "steroids" is not only fully legal, but actually somewhat common....if properly prescribed under medical supervision, and taken from legitimate suppliers and sources such as pharmacies.
In fact lots of women are given commonly available anabolic steroids after pregnancy just to prevent painful lactation if they have already decided they are not going to nurse..and some people with muscular and bone marrow disorders are given anabolic steroids for their conditions, and millions of men take various forms of testosterone in shots, patches, etc...for hormone replacement all quite legally!
http://www.webmd.com/erectile-dysfunction/testosterone-replacement-therapy
but I do concede that the use of anabolic steroids, in a medically unsupervised fashion, purely for the result of getting bigger or improved athletic performance is quite unadvised and unethical with the medical profession, but I really doubt it is illegal most places....
............which of course explains why most guys like Bonds, Canseco, McGwire...have never been arrested nor ever been in jail..
the illegal issue here is threefold...
--if you sign an agreement or testify that you are not using them, then it's found out you lied (especially under oath), then that, of course, is illegal. (this is the issue of perjury that got Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, etc. into trouble)
--if you are engaged in the illegal and unlicensed manufacture, supply, delivery, sale, etc...of steroids, then you have likely broken some laws (the Balco people were NOT licensed to make or sell them and thus they broke plenty of laws)
--if you defraud someone in this regard by using the drugs to win competitions
Take note, that perhaps the MOST prominently punished athlete in this regard was Marion Jones...but her violation was that she lied to TWO grand juries who were investigating the illegal manufacture of the drugs...and she was NEVER prosecuted for taking them...and I doubt many ever have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Jones
Definitely not a surprise but as bad as this may sound, it may have been a good thing for baseball that McGwire and Sosa did use steroids because they put together a home run chase (albeit on juice) that sparked interest in baseball. For a while interest in baseball was dwindling and that home run chase created interest in baseball and sort of brought the game back to life.
I'm not a proponent of steroids, but they still have to hit the ball and with pitches coming at over 90 mph that is not easy to do. McGwire was a great player and he would've been a great player even if he wasn't on juice.
doug shank's crossover
New member
DeltaBrave03
New member
Couldn't agree more they saved baseball period. No matter how much they're hurting it now, if it hadn't been for '98 very few would even care that baseball was still around.
tornado
New member
I think you'd have a very hard time showing evidence as such...
--again..taking them was not illegal..only the manufacture, distribution, or sale when unlicensed
-basically the same laws that prohibit the making and/or selling of home made drugs or even booze....
--and baseball didn't ban the drugs McGwire admits to using until 2002, but Mac retired in 2001 - he never violated the league's drug policy, since the league was light years behind in getting something serious done.
But I have been an outspoken and vocal opponent of steroids and their use since before McGwire ever started taking them...I think they should have been banned long ago and stiff penalties in place for their use...
but unfortunately many did not take the issue seriously and maybe some didn't want to lose key players and the very sluggers the fans were paying to see.
Baseball and all sports have a dilemma.... what about all the records set in the steroid era...?
Many baseball, football, weightlifting, etc...records are on the books courtesy of drug use...and it's virtually impossible to know which ones are and are not.
Even drug testing won't help that much, as it's been shown that there are quite successful ways for the takers to beat the system.
The small percentages of players caught with testing represents only a small amount of the guys using them.
It's a dilemma...but it's ironic that it comes up only now...decades after most intellgent people knew full well that Caminiti and Canseco were telling the truth but some pretended it wasn't so because of the $$ involved.
Posts by some faithful Cardinal fans......
Big Mac - Made a fool out of a lot of faithful fans. He is a first ballot Hall of Shamer! All my memorabilia will go in the garbage just like his career! Can't Believe the Cardinals will allow a cheating liar to represent them as a hitting coach! What's that say about Tony? What's that say to the fans who have supported the Birds for generations?
I won't say surprised, just gave him the benefit of the doubt until proven. My main point is, why not admit it when it first was brought up? He wasn't talking to Congress as a person being accused. He could have come out then and made a strong case to children about the use of steroids. And the cop out of doing it because he was hurt is ... See More bull$hit! He has a right to work, how about volunteering as a public servant against steroid use? He surely doesn't need the money. Stole enough of that from fans with his big contracts!
I took my sons to the game when he broke the record. Thought we witnessed history and have had that taken away from us. My wife and I went to a game 3 years ago and when Bonds came to bat, the Cardinal fans booed profusely. Will those fans do the same when Mac walks onto the field or will they stand and cheer him?
Big Mac - Made a fool out of a lot of faithful fans. He is a first ballot Hall of Shamer! All my memorabilia will go in the garbage just like his career! Can't Believe the Cardinals will allow a cheating liar to represent them as a hitting coach! What's that say about Tony? What's that say to the fans who have supported the Birds for generations?
I won't say surprised, just gave him the benefit of the doubt until proven. My main point is, why not admit it when it first was brought up? He wasn't talking to Congress as a person being accused. He could have come out then and made a strong case to children about the use of steroids. And the cop out of doing it because he was hurt is ... See More bull$hit! He has a right to work, how about volunteering as a public servant against steroid use? He surely doesn't need the money. Stole enough of that from fans with his big contracts!
I took my sons to the game when he broke the record. Thought we witnessed history and have had that taken away from us. My wife and I went to a game 3 years ago and when Bonds came to bat, the Cardinal fans booed profusely. Will those fans do the same when Mac walks onto the field or will they stand and cheer him?
tornado
New member
I actually find it interesting that we skewer guys like McGwire, Bonds, and Clemens, since some of the evidence leaked out...
but others who are likely also doing it never get mentioned......
but I am convinced that most sluggers and many (75%) of all successful major leaguers did it based even on the sudden jump in production right around 1997-99 when the supply of powerful, secret, and readily available stuff from suppliers like Balco and others overseas became available...
check the numbers from guys like these...
and you can draw what conclusions you want based on this circumstantial evidence...
--Bret Boone whose homer numbers jumped from 4-12 per year before 1997, then suddenly 24-37 for 7 straight years after 1997.Then suddenly - injuries and career ends.
--Jorge Posada, a slender guy early on who hit 6-17 homers per season early in his career, but suddenly starting in the late 90's, his HR numbers ballooned to 28-30.
--Jason Giambi - 6-20 HR's per year before 1997 - then suddenly everyone in America could see the guy put on pathological amounts of muscle and started hitting 41, 43, and 48 HR per year...until of course after a few years the injuries kick in from the muscles being way too strong for the frame and tendons.
--the same even happened to Jason Giambi's little brother Jeremy Giambi, who suddenly burst on the scene hitting 2 and 3 HR his first couple seasons, then whacking 20 in 2002, then his salary jumped from $280,000 to $2 million and in no time injuries ended his career.
--and many others...even little skinny Jose Cruz (entered the majors listed as 160 lbs!), was suddenly bulked up in the late 90's and went from hitting 11-12 HR per year to hitting 31-34 a year for a few seasons then as the testing probably hindered the ability to use year-round, his numbers dropped and he was out of baseball...but not 'til he was able to crack the $4 mil per year zone.
like I said....for most players who didn't happen to get caught in the serendipitously leaked evidence from Balco...
the rest whose performances were nothing short of mini-McGwire-like changes late in the 90's is circumstantial but revealing.
but others who are likely also doing it never get mentioned......
but I am convinced that most sluggers and many (75%) of all successful major leaguers did it based even on the sudden jump in production right around 1997-99 when the supply of powerful, secret, and readily available stuff from suppliers like Balco and others overseas became available...
check the numbers from guys like these...
and you can draw what conclusions you want based on this circumstantial evidence...
--Bret Boone whose homer numbers jumped from 4-12 per year before 1997, then suddenly 24-37 for 7 straight years after 1997.Then suddenly - injuries and career ends.
--Jorge Posada, a slender guy early on who hit 6-17 homers per season early in his career, but suddenly starting in the late 90's, his HR numbers ballooned to 28-30.
--Jason Giambi - 6-20 HR's per year before 1997 - then suddenly everyone in America could see the guy put on pathological amounts of muscle and started hitting 41, 43, and 48 HR per year...until of course after a few years the injuries kick in from the muscles being way too strong for the frame and tendons.
--the same even happened to Jason Giambi's little brother Jeremy Giambi, who suddenly burst on the scene hitting 2 and 3 HR his first couple seasons, then whacking 20 in 2002, then his salary jumped from $280,000 to $2 million and in no time injuries ended his career.
--and many others...even little skinny Jose Cruz (entered the majors listed as 160 lbs!), was suddenly bulked up in the late 90's and went from hitting 11-12 HR per year to hitting 31-34 a year for a few seasons then as the testing probably hindered the ability to use year-round, his numbers dropped and he was out of baseball...but not 'til he was able to crack the $4 mil per year zone.
like I said....for most players who didn't happen to get caught in the serendipitously leaked evidence from Balco...
the rest whose performances were nothing short of mini-McGwire-like changes late in the 90's is circumstantial but revealing.
DeltaBrave03
New member
I agree with T just because these guys were the superstars they're being front and center. I'm sure there are numerous players who were below average and steroids made them average, but no one cared. Mac and sosa didn't single handedly cause the huge spike in homers we saw that decade or so, and what proof do we have that pitchers weren't juicing as well I have reason to believe Gagne was for LA, and back in the dead ball era. I'm sure numerous pitchers were scuffing balls, using pine tar, etc. And any cubs fans that want to bash mac better remember their superstar sosa who suddenly forgot how to speak english when he went in front of congress :lol:
houstontxbrave
New member
The steriod era McGwire spoke of that he wishes he did not play baseball in, whatever that time frame of that era, every single player regardless of what they want to say is guilty. Sorry but any record or acheivement by any player in that era deserves an *.
I also sincerely believe that major league baseball is guilty of fraud and should be suited by all individuals who purchased even one ticket during this steriod era. They knew exactly what was happening and condoned it. Trying to divert attention by saying it was juiced balls, it was their juiced players who hit home runs and brought money back to the activity... btw its not a sport anymore its wrestling, except wrestling admits its for entertainment, baseball has long passed the point of competition.
It is a sham and a disgusting fraud of an activity. Lies and more lies. Every single person associated with it is GUILTY.
I also sincerely believe that major league baseball is guilty of fraud and should be suited by all individuals who purchased even one ticket during this steriod era. They knew exactly what was happening and condoned it. Trying to divert attention by saying it was juiced balls, it was their juiced players who hit home runs and brought money back to the activity... btw its not a sport anymore its wrestling, except wrestling admits its for entertainment, baseball has long passed the point of competition.
It is a sham and a disgusting fraud of an activity. Lies and more lies. Every single person associated with it is GUILTY.