New IHSA 4-Class Basketball

[tornado]

This fall, IHSA Boys Basketball will be played in 4 classes.

No more two-class system as has been the prevailing way since the early 70's.

Here is how IHSA breaks down the classes.

Class 1A - 255 schools (33.33% of all IHSA schools), with enrollments 0 - 350.

Class 2A - 170 schools (22.22% of all IHSA schools), with enrollment 351- 724.

Class 3A - 170 schools (22.22% of all IHSA schools), with enrollment 725 - 1658.

Class 4A - 169 schools (22.22% of all IHSA schools), with enrollment 1658 and above.


Many of the Peoria area schools that are outside of the Peoria or Pekin city limits will be Class 1A (Williamsfield, Avon, Lowpoint-Washburn, Woodland, Roanoke-Benson, Wethersfield, Princeville, Brimfield, Galva, Abingdon, Lewistown, Peoria Heights, Heyworth, Stark Co., Midland, Illini Central, Dee-Mack, Putnam Co., Illini Bluffs, Tremont.)

In Class 2A will be Knoxville, Havana, Midwest Central, Maroa-Forsyth, Ottawa Marquette, Fieldcrest, Pleasant Plains, St.Bede, Farmington, Hall, Bureau Valley, Peoria Christian (because of the multiplier), Eureka, Kewanee, Olympia, IVC (enrollment 677), Macomb, Bloomington Central Catholic.)

Peoria Manual, because of an enrollment that has shrunk to 635, is also 2A. (so is Chicago Westinghouse at 640)

Local 3A schools will be Canton (780), Quincy Notre Dame (795 after multiplier), Woodruff (895), Lincoln (910), Pontiac (925), Metamora (930), Morton (964), Peoria Central (989), Normal U-High (1013), Washington (1131), Limestone (1151), Decatur Eisenhower (1220), East Peoria (1227), Peoria Notre Dame (1296), Lasalle Peru (1297), Richwoods (1351), Galesburg (1431), Bloomington HS (1537), and a whole slew of Chicago and Chicago suburban schools.

The 4A schools include only Pekin (2346) among our area schools, although a little distance from here are Ottawa Twp. (1677), Rockford East (1713), Normal Comm. (1828), and just about all the rest of 4A are up by Chicago.


I can't wait 'til the state playoffs begin and we get Manual vs.
Red Bud, or Bloomington HS vs. Breese Mater Dei.

In 4a we might see Berwyn Cicero (enrollment 8025) or New Trier (4201) vs. Arlington Heights St. Viator (private boys only with a total enrollment of a little over 500, but multiplied X2 because they are boys only, then multiplied again X1.65 because of the private school multiplier.)

 

[Chucky T's]

Are any of you posters in favor of the IHSA going to four classes? Have you talked to anyone that is in favor of it?

Personally, I am against the four class system and I have yet to talk to anyone who is in favor of it. I think this waters down the accomplishment of winning a state title. I understand that this enables schools to compete against other schools that are similar in enrollment but isn't this what the regionals and sectionals are for?

This is just my opinion but I would be interested in hearing from someone who is in favor of this decision.

I realize this is not BU related but I thought during this slow time of year it might be worthy of some discussion.

 

[tornado]

Maybe, but ask people from Pekin or Breese Mater Dei...

this will ultimately work against natural rivalries, as Pekin will now play postseason ball against a whole different bunch of schools than they play against in the regular season.
And Mater Dei will now never face Breese Central again in the postseason. This will lessen certain great natural rivalries, just as it did in Indiana when they went to 4 classes, and cause teams (like Pekin) to look to start scheduling more opponents in their own class, and having to look 50-100 miles away as there isn't any in the class that are any closer than that.

 

[That Guy]

Indiana used to have only one single class for basketball. This made for some great stories (example, Milan High School, the movie Hoosiers was written about them) and also some great rivalries. Indiana moved to a class basketball tourney about a decade ago because some of the smaller school complained that they weren't given a chance to win. Since the inception of class basketball, the state tourney that was "Hoosier Hysteria" has lost some of it's muster. Some natural rivalries were dissolved come tournament time as teams were forced to travel farther in order to play similar sized schools. Also post-season attendance has dropped considerably since the class system was instituted. What once was a standing room only affair has given way to half-filled gymnasiums. This is sad because although I know you all don't want to admit it, NOBODY loves high school basketball as much as Indiana...

 

[yourbradleybraves!]

I do not claim to know all of the in's and out's of the IHSA basketball system, however I grew up in a four class system that worked very well.
Georgia had a four class system that I think worked very well. I went to a school of about 3,000 students, and a school of 1000 or under students usually had no business playing us. Competition in the playoffs usually increased, because all of the teams that played eachother had similar talent pools. However, for the school that had more gifted talent pools, they allowed schools to play UP a classification if they elected too. That way, a powerhouse school that had an enrollment of 1,400, could play in the top classification (cut off 1,500) if they wanted too, or play with similar enrollments that they were originally classified as. The choice was for the school to make. Quite a few schools elected to move up a classification because of geographical and traditional rivalries and pride, but of course the vast majority of schools chose to play in their classified level. This way similar schools could fairly compete AND schools that were had naturally gifted programs could compete where ever they wanted too. Both sides were usually happy.

Could this concept help in Illinois?

 

[thefish7]

I don't really like it. Maybe Chicago area schools like it so they don't have to compete with the likes of we "downstate" folk, or whatever.

I wouldn't mind, if there was a way for lower class schools to play into the higher class postseason. Then you could still have Hoosiers.

 

[VromanFan]

I don't really like it. Maybe Chicago area schools like it so they don't have to compete with the likes of we "downstate" folk, or whatever.

I wouldn't mind, if there was a way for lower class schools to play into the higher class postseason. Then you could still have Hoosiers.

I really don't think the support for this change came from either Chicago or downstate. I think in general it was supported by schools at the low enrollment end of Class A and AA. The thinking is these schools will be more competitive at the newly created levels.

I think its lame.

 

[BradleyBrave]

I think its lame.

You are 100% correct. It is lame. Unfortunately, it's a product of today's "everyone's a winner" society, i.e. the p-ssification of America.

 

[tornado]

BB-- here is the exact statement by IHSA Director Marty Hickman:

"Based on the discussion at the 28 Town Meetings held all across Illinois, it???‚¬?„?s clear that our member schools are very supportive of the Association moving forward with class expansion,said IHSA Executive Director Marty Hickman. ???‚¬?“We realize a change of this magnitude will be unsettling to some people. We want to make sure there are as few surprises as possible, and posting these models is one way to ease the transition.???‚¬??

BUT--- nobody else who was at any of these "Town Meetings" can recall anything that people said positive about it. In fact, most recall hearing far more negative and most people were against it.

it is almost as if Marty Hickman has his own agenda and will interpret things the way he wants in order to fulfill his agenda, and forge ahead with the class expansion.

I have personally never heard one person say they thought it was a good idea other than Marty Hickman, and even then I don't think he's saying it is good, only that it is going to happen.

http://www.ihsa.org/announce/2006-07/2006-11-29.htm


Here is the specific basketball committee report in which the minutes read:
"The committee reviewed the 4 class system scheduled to begin in 2007-08. The committee expressed their general opposition to the change, indicating their belief that the present 2 class system is adequate."
http://www.ihsa.org/org/advmin/2005-06/06-bk-minutes.htm

The Track Committee also voted it down
http://www.dailyherald.com/localsports/beatwriters.asp?column=radtke&id=309092

The softball committee also voted it down as did almost every other committee...I can't find even ONE that wanted Class Expansion!

But then, here is what Marty Hickman said about those minutes:
""The expansion of classes was supported by our membership, and as I've said in the past, we're a membership-driven organization," IHSA executive director Marty Hickman said. "Those who voted favored this move."

Hmmm...sounds like there is a little discrepancy here.......
I would like to see someone from the IHSA "membership" other than Hickman who favors this change.

 

[BUBraves06]

I think its lame.

You are 100% correct. It is lame. Unfortunately, it's a product of today's "everyone's a winner" society, i.e. the p-ssification of America.

Good point. I'm totally against this, and it looks like Hickman is just pushing his own agenda which is unfortunate.

 

[amckillip]

Indiana used to have only one single class for basketball. This made for some great stories (example, Milan High School, the movie Hoosiers was written about them) and also some great rivalries. Indiana moved to a class basketball tourney about a decade ago because some of the smaller school complained that they weren't given a chance to win. Since the inception of class basketball, the state tourney that was "Hoosier Hysteria" has lost some of it's muster. Some natural rivalries were dissolved come tournament time as teams were forced to travel farther in order to play similar sized schools. Also post-season attendance has dropped considerably since the class system was instituted. What once was a standing room only affair has given way to half-filled gymnasiums. This is sad because although I know you all don't want to admit it, NOBODY loves high school basketball as much as Indiana...

Sorry, Your wrong. Indiana HS State tournaments still pack arenas, its still nuts, and its still a huge deal. It simply is unfair to have Greg Oden, Mike Conley, Eric Gorden, Armon Basset, and Josh McRoberts(BTW, all those kids are just from one conference in Indiana) playing against kids from no wheres-ville Indiana. Growing up in Indiana I can tell you class playoffs are a great thing because it gives small schools a chance. I don't care how lucky or how well, let's say, Brown County plays as a team Greg Oden would have eaten them alive.

BTW Milan High won at a time where it was not uncommon for a small rural team to win.(Times have changed) As a matter a fact a very easy trivia question. What School was the first inner city school to ever win a state title, when did they do it, and who was there star player(this is the giveaway)?

 

[Da Coach]

I am not too familiar with Indiana high school history, but could it be Oscar Robertson from Crispus Attucks high school?

 

[Da Coach]

I am not too familiar with Indiana high school history, but could it be Oscar Robertson from Crispus Attucks high school?

I guess it was Oscar and Indianapolis Attucks HS. Here is an interesting timeline I found for Crispus Attucks high school--

http://www2.indystar.com/articles/1/225541-2271-009.html

I imagine none of us can quite conceive the stuff families like the Robertsons had to go through in those glory days of the KKK and forced segregation.

 

[amckillip]

I am not too familiar with Indiana high school history, but could it be Oscar Robertson from Crispus Attucks high school?

Yup nice job. Anyone who reads the article DC provided will understand why it was not uncommon at the time of the Milan state title for small schools to succeed in basketball.

 

[daPAWW1]

A trophy for everyone?

A trophy for everyone?

I guess I'm split on this decision - I think their intentions were to get more teams to a final four atmosphere and I don't see anything wrong with that and from a local perspective this might truly benefit those schools with less than 350 enrollment, i.e. D-Mac, Lowpoint-Washburn and the like. However, I don't see a Metamora, E Peoria, or Morton benefiting much from this! How many Manuals and Westinghouses are in that 2A - 3A segment of which I see schools like that dominating those segments. I also see those 2A / 3A teams producing the toughest competition. I don't recall too many really big (4A) schools doing much in the tourney in the last 20 years?

If I had to guess what's next - probably 6 or 8 classes like football! You know keep chopping until your school wins a trophy!

So I guess this an extension of Bush's 'No Child Left Behind' for basketball teams!

 

[corilon]

Having grown up in the 60s and 70s in Illinois I was quite familiar with the 2 class system. Then I moved to Texas. Wow! And recently it has gotten crazier. 6 classifications for football here and that doesn't count 6 man football and the ultra small private schools. Now for the good part. Each classification now gets divided again for the playoffs. You get the top three from each district making the playoffs then you sort by enrollment and the largest goes into the 6A div I and the other two into the 6A div II tournaments. That way you get 12 state champs in football each and every year. So conceivably <doubt it ever has happened> a team could finish 3rd in their 6 team district/conference then because they happened to have a higher enrollment than the 1st and 2nd teams in the same district they get placed in a different tournament and lo and behold because all the really good teams are not the biggest schools they end up with a state championship without playing anyone. Still seems a bit screwy to me.

corilon

 

[ph]

On a College b-ball related note.
Will this change affect college recruiting?
Might 2-a athletes get noticed more?, or is most D1 recruiting still going to be 3-a+?

 

[Da Coach]

Good question. In other states with 4 or more classes,like Indiana, it hasn't made much difference. In the remote past it might have kept some kids from getting noticed, but now recruiting is so extensive, and kids get exposure in many ways (AAU, summer camps, team-tournaments, recruiting services, etc) that I doubt now it will have an effect on recruiting now.

 

[That Guy]

Indiana used to have only one single class for basketball. This made for some great stories (example, Milan High School, the movie Hoosiers was written about them) and also some great rivalries. Indiana moved to a class basketball tourney about a decade ago because some of the smaller school complained that they weren't given a chance to win. Since the inception of class basketball, the state tourney that was "Hoosier Hysteria" has lost some of it's muster. Some natural rivalries were dissolved come tournament time as teams were forced to travel farther in order to play similar sized schools. Also post-season attendance has dropped considerably since the class system was instituted. What once was a standing room only affair has given way to half-filled gymnasiums. This is sad because although I know you all don't want to admit it, NOBODY loves high school basketball as much as Indiana...

Sorry, Your wrong. Indiana HS State tournaments still pack arenas, its still nuts, and its still a huge deal. It simply is unfair to have Greg Oden, Mike Conley, Eric Gorden, Armon Basset, and Josh McRoberts(BTW, all those kids are just from one conference in Indiana) playing against kids from no wheres-ville Indiana. Growing up in Indiana I can tell you class playoffs are a great thing because it gives small schools a chance. I don't care how lucky or how well, let's say, Brown County plays as a team Greg Oden would have eaten them alive.

Born and raised in Indiana, and still living there I know that Indiana high school basketball is part of what makes the state great. What football is to Texas, basketball is to Indiana. I know that the finals still pack Conseco, and that the playoff are still exciting. However, it has been shown that attendance has dropped statewide since the class system began. I am just not a fan of the class basketball system. What's so wrong about only having one state champion a year? If it works in other sports, why should it change for basketball and football?

 

[chitownBUB]

Most Chicago area schools are 3A and 4A and most are declining slowly in attendance.
Those that are 2A, if they align themselves in the future with other 2A schools in their scheduling, then most certainly they will drop off the lists of many college recruiters.
Very few D-I players seem to come from those smaller schools, and I will guess it's that way all over the state.
The biggest 2A schools like Chicago Latin, Richards, Dyett just never are known for basketball.
Two exceptions, Hales and North Lawndale, will still retain their prominence because of their scheduling.
My guess is that schools like Manual and possibly some day Central, that drop to 2A, will stay prominent because of the conference they are in and the teams they schedule, but Manual's decline has been very rapid. How long before the Peoria schools re-organize?

Note that Manual's enrollment was 1600 in the 1970's, 1200 in 1988, 1100 in 1995, 1000 in 1997, 986 in 1998, 973 in 1999, and it was nearly 800 two years ago, and is 635 now.
Central was over 2000 twenty years ago, and is 989 now.
By contrast, Quincy HS is almost exactly where it's been for 30 years, a little over 2000.