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Ironic?

W

warren5

New member
When we were winning with our juco guys (Will Franklin, Lawrence Wright) and transfers we all wanted Jim to get high school guys to stick around for 4 years. Well we got these guys and Jim doesn't develop the talent to be any good, so maybe he should go back to the JUCO and Transfer kids?

Just a thought
 
warren5 said:
When we were winning with our juco guys (Will Franklin, Lawrence Wright) and transfers we all wanted Jim to get high school guys to stick around for 4 years. Well we got these guys and Jim doesn't develop the talent to be any good, so maybe he should go back to the JUCO and Transfer kids?

Just a thought
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Not necessarily...

Even with Theron Wilson and Chris Roberts who were both pretty solid players, we never eclipsed what we've done with Les at the helm, and then you add in the Rashad Austin's and Tyrone Cole-Scott's and then even the ever underperforming David Collins...


Just like with the hs players, we have a knack for finding just enough talent to get by, but not enough to produce consistent winning results.
 
I will say one thing about the JuCo players...

They are usually a heck of a lot tougher than the kids direct out of HS...even comparing Jr yr right out of HS to Jr yr JuCo transfers...
 
It's a good thought. I have wondered myself if we wouldn't be better off with at least 1 juco kid each year.
Certainly if that last scholarship (the one held for Michael Ochereobia) if it had gone to a juco guard or big man it would be helping us right now instead of sitting on the far end of the bench.
It would have been nice to have a Mamadou Seck or a Booker Woodfox type right now.
 
You can also say its how the coaches fail to help the players develop, the system they run, the players they actually recruit, and the list could go on and on.

David Collins, Anthony Thompson are prime examples of a Juco and HS player coming to the program that everyone wanted more out of. When you get No time and No touches in games its hard to develop. You also get pulled after 1 mistake all the time. I am a firm believer that players gain experience and toughness in games. Anthony didn't really get any time until this year. David Collins comes in as a JUCO and didn't play till his senior year...


Just tough to point out what exactly the problem is at BU. But like some have stated I think its a combination of alot of different things.
 
I'll admit that I was happy when BU got away from recruiting Juco guys and basically recruited high school players. It obviously hasn't panned out. It seems like the urgency isn't there.

We've had too many guys linger on the roster at the end of the bench. It's been exposed this year with the two injuries. There's been approximately 60 extra minutes of playing time available this year and nobody has stepped up.
 
I have liked a lot of our Juco kids. Be happy to have more... I figure freshmen are the better way to build a program, in general, over time... however, we've all seen some of the raw toughness some of these kids have.

One thing I'm not sure I get is the "Les doesn't develop players" criticism. I'm just a casual fan of college basketball that isn't Bradley, but if I look at our current roster the "development failures" include Anthony Thompson and I guess maybe Milos? The reason I point this out is because I've seen tons of development out of some Bradley players at a variety of different positions. Taylor Brown and Daniel Ruffin are examples of players who made HUGE strides during their BU careers under Les. As far as "normal" development, I think Andrew Warren, Patrick O'Bryant, DSE, Jordan Prosser, and Jeremy Crouch are all good examples. I don't know how this relates to other programs... Are we "failing develop" at a bad, average, or good rate? Are we having "breakthrough development" at bad, average, or good rate? I don't have any idea, just curious what others think. From an opinion standpoint, it hasn't felt bad to me...

Just don't get me started on style of play choices and how they may effect development or success...
 
midstateknowitall said:
You can also say its how the coaches fail to help the players develop, the system they run, the players they actually recruit, and the list could go on and on.

David Collins, Anthony Thompson are prime examples of a Juco and HS player coming to the program that everyone wanted more out of. When you get No time and No touches in games its hard to develop. You also get pulled after 1 mistake all the time. I am a firm believer that players gain experience and toughness in games. Anthony didn't really get any time until this year. David Collins comes in as a JUCO and didn't play till his senior year...


Just tough to point out what exactly the problem is at BU. But like some have stated I think its a combination of alot of different things.
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It's also hard to catch the ball down on the block when you're 25 ft from the basket setting screens which is something I can guarantee neither were doing at their previous school...

It's safe to say that if someone like Carmichael were here, he certainly wouldn't be getting 17 rebounds or 24 points standing out on the perimeter waiting for a guard to screen for.
 
thefish7 said:
I have liked a lot of our Juco kids. Be happy to have more... I figure freshmen are the better way to build a program, in general, over time... however, we've all seen some of the raw toughness some of these kids have.

One thing I'm not sure I get is the "Les doesn't develop players" criticism. I'm just a casual fan of college basketball that isn't Bradley, but if I look at our current roster the "development failures" include Anthony Thompson and I guess maybe Milos? The reason I point this out is because I've seen tons of development out of some Bradley players at a variety of different positions. Taylor Brown and Daniel Ruffin are examples of players who made HUGE strides during their BU careers under Les. As far as "normal" development, I think Andrew Warren, Patrick O'Bryant, DSE, Jordan Prosser, and Jeremy Crouch are all good examples. I don't know how this relates to other programs... Are we "failing develop" at a bad, average, or good rate? Are we having "breakthrough development" at bad, average, or good rate? I don't have any idea, just curious what others think. From an opinion standpoint, it hasn't felt bad to me...

Just don't get me started on style of play choices and how they may effect development or success...
Click to expand...

I agree. I think Prosser in particular shows that the atmosphere for development is there, but you have to embrace it.

ETA: Has Les had any players win "most improved" in the MVC?
 
it's boogie time said:
I'll admit that I was happy when BU got away from recruiting Juco guys and basically recruited high school players. It obviously hasn't panned out. It seems like the urgency isn't there.

We've had too many guys linger on the roster at the end of the bench. It's been exposed this year with the two injuries. There's been approximately 60 extra minutes of playing time available this year and nobody has stepped up.
Click to expand...

This goes back to my argument that in 9 years Les hasn't figured out a player rotation or how to get guys minutes keeping everyone fresh while maintaining quality minutes...

Just look at last year...even with a full compliment of players (minus Dodie), he was playing Sammy 36 min a game or around there...

Never learning how to use the bench has cost us quite a few over the years...just look at last night...granted Carmichael came off the bench which is extremely rare, but even without him they outscored us 24-17 and that's with Walt giving us a solid 8 pts...
 
Da Coach said:
It's a good thought. I have wondered myself if we wouldn't be better off with at least 1 juco kid each year.
Certainly if that last scholarship (the one held for Michael Ochereobia) if it had gone to a juco guard or big man it would be helping us right now instead of sitting on the far end of the bench.
It would have been nice to have a Mamadou Seck or a Booker Woodfox type right now.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't have a problem with 4 juco 8 4 year guys...

Right now we are sitting a 2 and 10 or 2.5 9.5 depending on how you count that Andrew Davis guy.
 
SaintLouBrave22 said:
It's also hard to catch the ball down on the block when you're 25 ft from the basket setting screens which is something I can guarantee neither were doing at their previous school...

It's safe to say that if someone like Carmichael were here, he certainly wouldn't be getting 17 rebounds or 24 points standing out on the perimeter waiting for a guard to screen for.
Click to expand...

In all the college hoops games I've seen this year, every team possesses an inside-out game which opens up the 3-pointers.
BU just doesn't do that, and for some reason, they don't think it's necessary. After all, we're doing just fine in the Valley...right?
DSE and JE are not bad outside shooters when they are open. They just don't seem to be open much because the ball is sitting around the perimeter and not going inside much. And when it goes inside, it doesn't come back out much...unless one of our post players loses the ball.
 
I'll bite fish...

The problem in many instances for the names you throw out is that they either ended their careers as basically the same players, or likely will. Sure they might have been marginally better and physically stronger...but they don't add dimensions to their game.

Warren has offered some new intangibles and toughness that I know some had openly questioned. But if he wasn't this team's only option this year, it's questionable if we would have seen him be this aggressive.

POB's dominance in Feb/March of 2006 could have had as much to do with the fact he didn't play the first 1/3 of that season. Also his work ethic, as exhibited by his fluid professional career) likely would have limited any further growth in college.

Certainly, I get some shooters, rebounders and defending specialists may never be more than that one dimension to their game. However, part of coaching is either developing those additional skills, or putting those guys into roles in a system designed to make them successful.
 
LittleBrave said:
In all the college hoops games I've seen this year, every team possesses an inside-out game which opens up the 3-pointers.
BU just doesn't do that, and for some reason, they don't think it's necessary. After all, we're doing just fine in the Valley...right?
DSE and JE are not bad outside shooters when they are open. They just don't seem to be open much because the ball is sitting around the perimeter and not going inside much. And when it goes inside, it doesn't come back out much...unless one of our post players loses the ball.
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Couldn't have said it better myself...you get it...


We'd have to run an offense where our bigs stayed down on the block though...

I don't know why he stuck with the horrible sets he did but he's gotta realize, we don't have great perimeter shooters on this team...

This team should be a penetrate and drop or penetrate and kick and hi lo type of team...but no, we still run the weave and pass the ball from side to aide across the perimeter like we have Crouch and Franklin out there...
 
squirrelgotdead said:
I'll bite fish...

The problem in many instances for the names you throw out is that they either ended their careers as basically the same players, or likely will. Sure they might have been marginally better and physically stronger...but they don't add dimensions to their game.

Warren has offered some new intangibles and toughness that I know some had openly questioned. But if he wasn't this team's only option this year, it's questionable if we would have seen him be this aggressive.

POB's dominance in Feb/March of 2006 could have had as much to do with the fact he didn't play the first 1/3 of that season. Also his work ethic, as exhibited by his fluid professional career) likely would have limited any further growth in college.

Certainly, I get some shooters, rebounders and defending specialists may never be more than that one dimension to their game. However, part of coaching is either developing those additional skills, or putting those guys into roles in a system designed to make them successful.
Click to expand...

I don't think you answered any of the questions I posed.. Nor do I think the expectation you seem to be putting out there as the target makes a lot of sense. Let's take Dyricus as an example, he's a good slasher, a decent shooter, has a mean entry pass, a pretty good defender, but struggles to keep his handle on the ball. If he finishes his Bradley career as an excellent slasher, consistent outside threat, patient with the ball, and a lights out defender, I'm not going to complain that he never turned into a better post up guy? Nor would I want him or the coach spending a lot of time on that skill.

Likewise, Jordan Prosser is having a very nice freshman season. He's a good finisher, strong in the paint, and at times a good rebounder. He's struggling with his hands both on catching passes and bobbling rebounds. Good development would be him improving his hands, getting more consistent on defense, getting better at his FTs, and becoming even more aggressive in the paint, but if he never develops an outside shot I will not be disappointed.

When it comes to adapting system to take advantage of your strengths, I think I've been clear that I think Les is screwing that up... And I think in the case of say AT, that we've also probably squandered some potential. But it's not the topic I raised, I'm asking about player development, which is that guys show progress year to year and cash in on their potential. I think for the most part, our players have shown that.
 
Ok...let's examine your arguments as to players who stand as "good" examples of marked improvement...

Crouch...by your standards would be a higher shooting %, fewer TO's, and maybe more steals.

Well, in something like 8-10 more minutes a game, scoring doubled between frosh and senior years. The FG% generally increased, but not enough that screams out improvement (frosh and sr %s are roughly the same). Perhaps Crouch had already reached his ceiling in terms of shooting anyway. So we move on...assists shot up, but TO's nearly doubled between Jr and Sr year, and doubled roughly comparing against frosh or junior years. For someone who played 26 mpg as a frosh playing 34 as a senior those numbers show very little variance to me, at least what I would call "good improvement". The major reason for the spike in assists and TOs largely had to do with Crouch playing the point during Ruffin's absence.

Most of Ruffin's improvement happened between frosh and soph years, with his HS coach on staff. Numbers after that pretty much stalled, and things like A:TO went in the wrong direction by senior season, though scoring did go up.

I'm not suggesting Prosser all of a sudden start working on being a combo forward, however, I don't think it's asking much to have a high % shooter from the paint who appears able to battle and rebound maybe add a couple things to his arsenal...shot blocking and maybe a deadly 10-12' hook with both hands.

I am not saying there aren't areas of improvement, but I am saying that the development is not noteworthy or what I would call "good." I just don't think it's adequate in helping guys mature their games, and that is very individualized and can vary.
 
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