An Honest Question

[squirrelgotdead]

So your saying that hawk/les, jj/thirdkill would not have been missed? Please....without those two players on each team they would have been nowhere near where they finished...not over rating TB and SM, but they are the two best players on the team...although AW is making a case

Obviously you missed the point. Of course they would've been missed. But they still would have been able to battle on without them and have success because there was talent and depth.

While this team has some good players, let's face it, they are not the same level, and beyond that is probably another two levels down.

What you are implying, essentially, is if Duke lost its two best players its OK for them to finish last in the ACC and/or not make the NCAA Tournament.

 

[Da Coach]

Disagree. IMO, BU would have been a bad team in both those years ('82 and '86) if you took the two top players away. They would have been a second division team at best.

And it is not fair for fans to use opinion and conjecture to make points against Jim Les but not to allow anyone to use their own opinions or conjecture in supporting him.:roll:

 

[Buesch N Chips]

And it is not fair for fans to use opinion and conjecture to make points against Jim Les but not to allow anyone to use their own opinions or conjecture in supporting him.:roll:

Good point.

 

[squirrelgotdead]

If you want everyone to believe that Trimpe, Powell, Mike Williams or Luke Jackson (depending on what year you choose to compare) and Anthony Manuel (who, like Les is all-time Top 5 in the NCAA in an assist category-per game) would be "second division at best", I'm afraid our fans deserve a little more respect than that.

No one ever suggested they'd be league champs, but to compare those teams to this team is frankly laugh out loud funny.

 

[Da Coach]

Again, that may be your opinion, but I saw every one of those games in 81-82 and 85-86, and no matter what you might think, all those other guys were nothing more than solid role players.

Manual was a nice player, but you forget he was a freshman in 85-86, and would not have been able to replace Jim Les any more than DSE or DD have been successful replacing Sammy. And Mike Williams was simply not a scorer, he could not have carried that team. The few points he got were mostly on assists coming from Jim Les, or rebounds on shots by Hersey. Trimpe and Powell were sophomores, but not impact players at that point in their Bradley careers. And Luke Jackson was not even on that team, he started at Bradley in 1986-87.

The same is true with the 81-82 season. Take away JJ and either Thirdkill or Reese, and you would have a bunch of role players. They might have won a few more games than this year's team, but mainly because the MVC was a weak conference back then with just a couple good teams at the top.

 

[squirrelgotdead]

So you are standing by the "second division at best" comment, along with the MVC being an awful league during those days, too? Just want to make sure I have a clear understanding.

Look, I can agree to disagree. All I'm trying to do is point out those teams in the past had a combination of guys who could make teammates better along with guys who could be made better. And more importantly a clear system, whereby backups could step in and produce. You are arguing role players would never be more than that, and I disagree because of that key point.

While I think where SM and TB do a good job of making teammates better, and where there leadership is missed, unfortunately, the program isn't stocked with guys who can be made better by other teammates.

To me that's a big difference and why these comparisons are way off base.

 

[lake Camelot]

They might have won a few more games than this year's team, but mainly because the MVC was a weak conference back then with just a couple good teams at the top.

I may not be remembering correctly because time makes me look back more fondly on the past. But I have always thought from say 1977 to now when I have watched Bradley that was the strongest the Valley has been Tulsa, Wichita and Bradley were great and Drake was good I think. Can't remember the other teams though.

 

[mrcoachdude]

Obviously you missed the point. Of course they would've been missed. But they still would have been able to battle on without them and have success because there was talent and depth.

While this team has some good players, let's face it, they are not the same level, and beyond that is probably another two levels down.

What you are implying, essentially, is if Duke lost its two best players its OK for them to finish last in the ACC and/or not make the NCAA Tournament.

Guess I am missing the point...

We are not Duke...and I never said i thought it was ok to finish 10th

And I am sorry, but if you took JL and Hawk away that team would not have had that success neither would the Cellus and Ruff team....and on and on I could go...comparing our own teams makes more sense or comparing other Valley teams would make sense...this NBA or Duke camparisons are just wrong...

 

[Beninator]

I may not be remembering correctly because time makes me look back more fondly on the past. But I have always thought from say 1977 to now when I have watched Bradley that was the strongest the Valley has been Tulsa, Wichita and Bradley were great and Drake was good I think. Can't remember the other teams though.

If we are talking since 1977, we have to include Indiana State during the Larry Bird years.

 

[mrcoachdude]

Squirrel..this thread was asking a question of Les supporters....you do not qualify

It was mention 1st in this thread by ER (another one not qualified) again just joking...

it is just a fact...a real fact that if a BU team..or Valley team or most Mid Major team lost their Starting point guard and their best scorer and rebounder...there would be a significant loss in record...I don't really care which team you compare...

lose two of your best players...you are going to lose in the record area...the more talent difference between those two and their substitutes the worse it would be...

 

[amettrick]

Squirrel..this thread was asking a question of Les supporters....you do not qualify

It was mention 1st in this thread by ER (another one not qualified) again just joking...

it is just a fact...a real fact that if a BU team..or Valley team or most Mid Major team lost their Starting point guard and their best scorer and rebounder...there would be a significant loss in record...I don't really care which team you compare...

lose two of your best players...you are going to lose in the record area...the more talent difference between those two and their substitutes the worse it would be...

I agree that losing your 2 best players is obviously going to cause a lot of problems and a drop in overall record. However, I think there is a disconnect between the original expectations and the real life results.

At the start of the season, before the injuries, many in this forum were of the mindset that this team had the talent to finish in the top-3 in the MVC, if not win it. Many posters still seem to believe that a healthy Sam and Taylor would make us one of the best teams in the Valley. Its one of their main defenses of Jim Les, saying essentially that he deserves another year because those two players would allow BU to compete at the top of the league.

However, if that were the case, then why is this team struggling so much now? Losing your two best players is certainly awful, but if this team were really at the caliber necessary to win the Valley, then it should at least have the depth to be competitve and not start 0-6.

The reality is, this team wasn't likely to be much better than .500 with a healthy SM and TB. There is a reason we were projected to finish in the middle of the pack again this year.

 

[mrcoachdude]

I agree that losing your 2 best players is obviously going to cause a lot of problems and a drop in overall record. However, I think there is a disconnect between the original expectations and the real life results.

At the start of the season, before the injuries, many in this forum were of the mindset that this team had the talent to finish in the top-3 in the MVC, if not win it. Many posters still seem to believe that a healthy Sam and Taylor would make us one of the best teams in the Valley. Its one of their main defenses of Jim Les, saying essentially that he deserves another year because those two players would allow BU to compete at the top of the league.

However, if that were the case, then why is this team struggling so much now? Losing your two best players is certainly awful, but if this team were really at the caliber necessary to win the Valley, then it should at least have the depth to be competitve and not start 0-6.

The reality is, this team wasn't likely to be much better than .500 with a healthy SM and TB. There is a reason we were projected to finish in the middle of the pack again this year.

I am one of those that was hoping for a top 3 finish...and still think that it was attainable with those two healthy...but the team is struggling due to that loss and we are 0-6 and the last three loses by an average of 6 points or so...there are other issues for sure...but

reality? That statement of yours about reality is all over the place "wasn't likely to be much better" ? what does that really mean?

My reality is with TB and SM we have a much better team..balanced and with its leaders...but neither you nor I can say anything about what it would be like with any certainty...so why are we railing on the coach for what is neither a certainty or reality....

 

[dogsrus]

The notion that we're at a disposition because of SM and TB being out many of us see right through because there's no supporting cast. And THAT is the real problem. Versace built a team that could withstand the rigors of war, which is in a sense what competitive sport is.

There IS a supporting cast Squirrel. To judge that cast from how they are playing now vs how they would play with 2 of the best 3 players this team has is shortsighted IMO.

Guys are playing out of position....guys don't have the best PG distrbuting the ball to them....the ONLY major threat is being double teamed and is the focus every night of the opposition.

You get Sam and TB back and Warren suddenly is one of THREE options thus they can't focus on him. Will gets a LITTLE better as does JP. Look how well they do with the ONE guy that can find them, JE feeds them the ball. Now replace JE with SM.....

JE also has been playing the 4 spot.....YIKES...he gives up 5-6 inches and 40-60 pounds most nights. Now you have TB to allow others to play NORMAL minutes and NORMAL positions.

We haven't really been blown out save for the second half vs WSU. I know I get railed for this and thats OK but I REALLY see us 5-1, 4-2 minimum with both healthy.

I know some people don't like to hear that becuase they feel its a pitch or a reason to keep JL.....thats NOT my motive or reason for my feelings about how we would be with a full healthy roster. As I have stated....how long do we play the "if only" or "what if" game...but I still have to call it like I see it and we would be a MUCH better team with those 2 guys. Period.

 

[sousaman2089]

Since President Glasser has been "successful" at getting rid of people not hired under her presidency, I would believe she and the University would jump at the chance to do so.

I need to read that post that was detailing coaches considered good canidates for the job, because I just don't feel comfortbale that Bradley could find someone who
A. Cares and knows Bradley more then anyone
B. Would be comfortable with staying at Bradley.

Which leads me to this question, do we look for someone who would stay long term, or do we look for someone who is an up and coming coach who, after some success, would leave for a better job without much hesitation?

I'd say, if we wanted to be realistic, we should take the latter, but I'd much prefer someone who would stay.

 

[SFP]

I've said it before, I'll support whoever is there, simply because the people that put him there, and the man himself, know a whole lot more than me about the Bradley basketball program. If a change is made I will support the new guy, if Les is retained I will continue to support him.

What I see around here is a lot of people who are very selective about what information they use, how expectations always change after the fact so that they are beyond what is accomplished, how every bad thing is because of Jim Les and every good thing is in spite of Jim Les.

Then you have people who rip on the players, the same players who very well may read this site. The same players who carry a whole class load plus work their butts off on the floor, and then the Internet John Woodens come on here and tell them all they did wrong, or tell them that their leaders are incompetent.

I sure hope the players stay away from here, and I certainly hope that the coaching staff does as well. It's a cruel place when adversity hits.

I'm personally on the fence still and will not post what direction I would take until March but in most professions if you failed hitting your goals year after year regardless of the economy/landscape your canned. I hit 90% of my targeted numbers last year and was the top sales guy for my organization and still the VCs were not pleased and told us that we all had a very short leach.

I'm still on the fence. This a make or break year for me when I thought we'd be at full strength. When TB and SM went out, I was inclined to give him one more year, but if we end up with single digit wins, I think it's probably time for a change.

To me it will be more of how we finish and if the young guys improve over that time.

I may not be remembering correctly because time makes me look back more fondly on the past. But I have always thought from say 1977 to now when I have watched Bradley that was the strongest the Valley has been Tulsa, Wichita and Bradley were great and Drake was good I think. Can't remember the other teams though.

CU had Benoit Benjamin and few other pretty good players! The league was strong and watching the BU/Tulsa/WS games were priceless.

 

[ER3]

There IS a supporting cast Squirrel. To judge that cast from how they are playing now vs how they would play with 2 of the best 3 players this team has is shortsighted IMO.

Guys are playing out of position....guys don't have the best PG distrbuting the ball to them....the ONLY major threat is being double teamed and is the focus every night of the opposition.

You get Sam and TB back and Warren suddenly is one of THREE options thus they can't focus on him. Will gets a LITTLE better as does JP. Look how well they do with the ONE guy that can find them, JE feeds them the ball. Now replace JE with SM.....

JE also has been playing the 4 spot.....YIKES...he gives up 5-6 inches and 40-60 pounds most nights. Now you have TB to allow others to play NORMAL minutes and NORMAL positions.

We haven't really been blown out save for the second half vs WSU. I know I get railed for this and thats OK but I REALLY see us 5-1, 4-2 minimum with both healthy.

I know some people don't like to hear that becuase they feel its a pitch or a reason to keep JL.....thats NOT my motive or reason for my feelings about how we would be with a full healthy roster. As I have stated....how long do we play the "if only" or "what if" game...but I still have to call it like I see it and we would be a MUCH better team with those 2 guys. Period.

I think everyone agrees that we would be "better" with SM and TB this year...clearly that would be the case.
The problem I have with completely getting on board with your optomistic predictions with Sam and Taylor healthy and agreeing with others that contend that we would be right there with WSU and MSU at the top of the Valley all year if not for those two injuries, is that we already had a season with a healthy Sam, Taylor, and Warren last year and we were a mediocre 16-15 team. Take away Roberts and Singh...add Dunson, Prosser, and Lemon...and we're suddenly 7 or 8 games better as a team? I just don't see it, I guess...
We had three All-Conference caliber players healthy for the entire Valley season last year and yet we were a .500 team :? :? :? Yikes.

 

[carter]

Record

Record

All each one of us has to do is look at the record since JL has been here.If that is all you expect from the Bradley program then keep him.In my opinion there is no debate.HE MUST GO!!

 

[Da Coach]

All each one of us has to do is look at the record since JL has been here....

2002-03-12-18
2003-04-15-16
2004-05-13-15
2005-06-22-11
2006-07-22-13
2007-08-21-17
2008-09-19-14
2009-10-16-15
2010-11- 6-11


His record is what it is, and this year it has been bad. But it cannot be denied that the last 5 seasons have been winning seasons. And it is fair to consider that this year would have been much different if not for some circumstances beyong the control of the coaches.

 

[Buesch N Chips]

2002-03-12-18
2003-04-15-16
2004-05-13-15
2005-06-22-11
2006-07-22-13
2007-08-21-17
2008-09-19-14
2009-10-16-15
2010-11- 6-11

It's not amazing, but it also isn't that far off from what every other coach from Stowell on up has accomplished. Once again, I find it hard to blame a guy for not doing something that has rarely been done here, i.e. be a consistent MVC contender. No one would say he has had standout success, which could potentially be a reason for a dismissal, but by the same token no one can say he has had standout failure, which could potentially be a reason for retention.

 

[mrcoachdude]

All each one of us has to do is look at the record since JL has been here.If that is all you expect from the Bradley program then keep him.In my opinion there is no debate.HE MUST GO!!

Here is the original question:

"My question is for those who still back JL."

you do not qualify... so you vote doesn't count