Duke Lacrosse Followup

[tornado]

After cancelling their 2006 season then reforming the team with several players leaving in 2007, the Duke Lacrosse team of 2008 has made a bit of a comeback, and has done so with very little press or fanfare.

They are only two wins away from winning the 2008 NCAA Lacrosse National Championship.
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gH7l-H6QHoCZ2lNMxFdXlbjAJsfg
http://www.ncaa.com/lacrosse-mens/article.aspx?id=246158

Every NCAA Lacrosse Championship since 1992 has been won by either Johns Hopkins, Syracuse, Virginia, or Princeton, so a title by Duke would be sweet vindication.

 

[Braves4Life]

Duke lost again to Johns Hopkins today; they were thoroughly outcoached and taken out of their game.

But should they have even been in this game? Duke played with 5 fifth year seniors who were granted an extra year of eligibility by the NCAA thanks to the whole rape fiasco and forfeited season. The NCAA made this snap decision without consulting with anyone in the lacrosse community, and many thought that Dule played with an unfair advantage all-season long. Let's remember that the Duke Administration really dropped the ball in this case by forfeiting the season before these young man were proclaimed innocent. Also, don't forget that this never would have happened if the Duke team (and administration that turned a blind eye to these hooligans for years) had not let a party get out of hand.

Lacrosse is a team game built on speed and physicality and Duke certainly had an unfair advantage here over every team in the country -- playing 5 players who were both physically more mature and stronger than most college kids, and also having a tremendous experience advantage over every team in the country. I'm sure that several of these five would/should have been playing professionally this year, instead of for Duke.

I'm sure the NCAA and lacrosse community is relieved that Duke lost as this controversy can now die on the vine.

 

[tornado]

Regardless of how much one may like lacrosse, it is easy to predict that it will forever suffer the exact same fate as pro or college soccer in America. Lack of any steady attendance...

Sure it is popular in many places around the world and in some local pockets in the US, and sure there are are dedicated American fans, and maybe even some youth teams are forming and growing, but...

As long as it is a game where 90% of the players on the field stand absolutely dead still at any given time, and the only action is between two guys playing keep away 50 yards from where anyone would score, then most Americans will never see any interest in this game.

I know lacrosse lovers will rebut what I say and I am not attempting to denigrate the game itself, but get back to me when more than a few college lacrosse games draw more than a couple thousand, or when lacrosse on TV actually gets an audience of more than a few curious onlookers.

 

[Beninator]

Regardless of how much one may like lacrosse, it is easy to predict that it will forever suffer the exact same fate as pro or college soccer in America. Lack of any steady attendance...

Sure it is popular in many places around the world and in some local pockets in the US, and sure there are are dedicated American fans, and maybe even some youth teams are forming and growing, but...

T, I have to disagree with you a little bit here.. First of all, I am not a soccer fan, but I think that Soccer still has the potential for growth in the U.S. This growth in attendance in college and professional soccer may take another generation or two, but all you have to do is drive by the soccer complex in Mossville or see the league play at Detwiller Park to realize the popularity in the sport with today's youth.

As for lacrosse, there has been a thread on this before, but I would like to see BU field a LAX team.

 

[tornado]

... all you have to do is drive by the soccer complex in Mossville or see the league play at Detwiller Park to realize the popularity in the sport with today's youth.

As for lacrosse, there has been a thread on this before, but I would like to see BU field a LAX team.

My kids are some of the ones down at Detweiller so I know the popularity of youth soccer, but therein lies some of the proof of my assertion.
If millions of kids are avid soccer fans and play the game, why then is there such little interest and following of soccer at the college and pro level.
What accounts for the HUGE, HUGE drop off in interest in America that does not exist in other countries?
I go to a lot of BU games, but their attendance is generally well under 1000, and lots of colleges don't even field a soccer team, while schools like WIU draw only about 200 per game!!

Then to carry on the lacrosse argument....it just happens that there is a professional lacrosse game on Comcast RIGHT NOW, and I watched a bit. First thing I noted (Chicago Machine at LA Riptide) was the horrible attendance. The entire stands are empty except a little area in the middle just above the wall, and I'd have to guess maybe the attendance is 300.
One thing I noticed, is that major league lacrosse has a shot clock (60 seconds), so no team can run around with the ball for any more than a minute before they have to shoot. There has apparently been some discussion and some experimenting in college with the shot clock as well to help eliminate one of the boring aspects to the game that Johns Hopkins used effectively against Duke Saturday.

All of which confirms my suspicion, that it is an incredibly boring game and unless they change the rules, people will stay away in droves!

Same can be said with soccer. The battle between the purists who don't want to change the game and the sensible people who know top caliber soccer is incredibly low scoring and boring, is well documented.
There have been some recent rule changes, such as limiting certain back-passing to your own goalie, but many who are experts, lovers of the game, and lifetime soccer devotees agree with my point of view, that unless the rules are changed in soccer (and I think the same is true of lacrosse) it will remain boring in most Americans' eyes, and poorly attended.
Some of the proposals involve enlarging the goal, shrinking the field, and eliminating or modifying off sides.

In fact, the off sides rule was inserted into soccer way back 80 years ago when soccer contests were very high scoring affairs where teams would pass ahead to teammates who were lagging back and "cherry picking", but now the offsides rule prevents fast breaks and penalizes nice passing and aggressive offense, while rewarding trickery by defenses who don't bother to even play defense, but who instead succeed in trapping opponents offsides with well orchestrated trick-defenses.

Like I said, when I was a kid (40 years ago) I looked at soccer and I said it will be popular only for while, then when teams developed balance and scores dropped to 0-0, 1-0, 1-1, most Americans would lose interest unless one of their kids is playing (thus the big crowds down at Detweiller).
I was right 40 years ago and I am still right today. Unless something changes, we will still be seeing attendances like this at top level soccer games in the US.


BU at EIU last fall, attendance 508
http://www.bubraves.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=19485&SPID=1513&DB_OEM_ID=3400&ATCLID=1301859

BU at SMU last fall, attendance only 272!!!
http://www.bubraves.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=19485&SPID=1513&DB_OEM_ID=3400&ATCLID=1306416

BU at Western Michigan last fall, attendance 120!
http://www.bubraves.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=19485&SPID=1513&DB_OEM_ID=3400&ATCLID=1280719

BU at Oral Roberts last fall, attendance 101!!
http://www.bubraves.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=19485&SPID=1513&DB_OEM_ID=3400&ATCLID=1285990

BU at UM-KC last fall, attendance a mere 87 !! You could practically count them on your fingers and toes!!
http://www.bubraves.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=19485&SPID=1513&DB_OEM_ID=3400&ATCLID=1256032

Not one NCAA school even draws 3000 per game for soccer, and most, of course, draw way, way less, with only
about 20 even drawing a thousand!
http://www.ncaa.org/stats/m_soccer/1/attendance/2006_d1_m_soccer_attendance.pdf

The very fact that a downsized, faster, higher scoring version of soccer (indoor soccer)
is gaining in popularity is proof that outdoor soccer needs to change.




ps---several people have repeatedly made the same suggestions about changing soccer to improve the action and the scoring
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/worldcup06/2006/07/06/great_tournament_shame_about_t.html
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=503822
http://www.metafilter.com/52815/A-World-Cup-without-goals
http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2002/Jun/07/world-cup-02-down-on-low-scoring-research-shows/

 

[MacabreMob]

In fact, the off sides rule was inserted into soccer way back 80 years ago when soccer contests were very high scoring affairs where teams would pass ahead to teammates who were lagging back and "cherry picking", but now the offsides rule prevents fast breaks and penalizes nice passing and aggressive offense, while rewarding trickery by defenses who don't bother to even play defense, but who instead succeed in trapping opponents offsides with well orchestrated trick-defenses.

Wow - T. Good stuff there!

I have a Brother-In-Law who coaches HS soccer in the Peoria area.... I think I am gonna serve up a little devil's advocate discussion at the next family get-together. I'll let you know if the "fork" sticks.

 

[tornado]

Mac-- my kids have played soccer and I have coached them for the past 6 years, so don't count me as against soccer, I am actually a HUGE fan of soccer.
But every time I turn on a pro game on TV, I just about puke to see the players walking up the field controlling the ball, and almost nobody running save for the rare times when someone gets a steal and a quick break.
It is truly boring and even my very kids who absolutely love soccer and even sleep with their soccer balls in bed with them, say "YUCK" and refuse to watch the pro version of the game.

There is more actual action in five minutes of my 10 year old daughter's games down at Detweiller, than in an entire half of a Chicago Fire game.
AND>>>>>most of the games actually have 3-4 or more goals scored!!

The soccer "purists" can recite the mantra all they want...
"it's the most popular game in the world, it's the most popular game in the world, it's the most popular game in the world..."
and
"let's not change it, the rest of the world will rebel, etc..."

But until they do make the inevitable changes, the game will always be viewed negatively in America and be considered boring.

I love this column...
"It??™s hard to see how this can be called ???the beautiful game??? when bozos are flopping all over the place trying to induce foul calls."
"I don??™t like the offside rule, which nullifies many possible scoring chances in a sport that needs scoring. I love the goals when they come because they are so few and far between."
http://www.thecolumnists.com/isaacs/isaacs239.html

 

[Beninator]

If millions of kids are avid soccer fans and play the game, why then is there such little interest and following of soccer at the college and pro level.
What accounts for the HUGE, HUGE drop off in interest in America that does not exist in other countries?


Like I said, when I was a kid (40 years ago) I looked at soccer and I said it will be popular only for while, then when teams developed balance and scores dropped to 0-0, 1-0, 1-1, most Americans would lose interest unless one of their kids is playing (thus the big crowds down at Detweiller).
I was right 40 years ago and I am still right today. Unless something changes, we will still be seeing attendances like this at top level soccer games in the US.

T, you will get no arguement from me that soccer is boring. The closest that I have come to watching a soccer game was at a pub in Northern England. I sat back and drank a couple of room temperature beers and asked the fanatics at the pub to tell me what in the h*** was going on. Long story short, I rooted for the local team and continued to drink some beers and had a good time! I will try to attend a BU game this year though.

Just a couple of points though... The lack of interest in soccer in the US is probably due to the fact that the sport is boring and that soccer faces competition from the MLB, NFL, and the NBA.

Secondly, your opinion about soccer 40 years is very valid. But, were the youth soccer leagues as prevelent then? When I was a kid, the only options that I had were Little League Baseball, JFL, and basketball. I think that if we look back 20-25 years ago, you would be hard pressed to find many soccer leagues in the area.

It will take a generation or two, but having seen youth soccer go from relative obscurity to the current level of popularity in the area will not allow me to rule out the future of soccer in the US.

 

[tornado]

no, there were very few soccer programs for youths 30-40 years ago, but what I meant was the introduction of soccer at the pro level, which was very popular when the Cosmos brought Pele to the US.
BUT---the play was so much more wide open and a significant (at least compared to today's standards) amount of scoring occurred.
6-5 games were not so unusual and quick passing and scoring occurred regularly.
I think somewhere along the line, players learned that stalling and trickery could offset the great talent of other players, so gradually the game turned more to the slowdown, boring game it is today.