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Hypocrisy at it's FINEST!

B

BradleyBrave

New member
Brad Nessler, on the Florida State-Miami game, couldn't stop marveling at the Native American mascot riding the horse with the flaming spear, the fans doing the tomohawk chop, and the spear being thrown into the ground. In fact, Nessler said it was "One of the great scenes in ALL of college sports". I'd be curious to know what folks at Bradley, Illinois, Miami-OH, North Dakota St, and on and on and on think about that. I would also like to know what Myles Brand and his band of card-carrying idealists think of that too. On second thought, I already know what they think. ;)
 
Didn't FSU pay off the local Indi.... OOPS! Native American Tribe for the right to do that? :o

It's ALL about the Benjamin$$$$$$$:(
 
FSU Seminoles

FSU Seminoles

Gents: Your speculation regarding FSUs relationship with the Seminole Tribe of Florida is completely unfounded and you clearly do not know what you are talking about! For many, many years, FSU has maintained special Summer programs for Seminole children and they have had a group of grants for Seminole students. This was prior to FSUs moving into big- time football.
FSU was until after WWII, a womens college that specialized in Textiles, Home Ec., and Clothing. The current FSU Indian on a horse was approved by the tribal council of the Seminole Nation and , in fact, the costume worn by the young man was designed and sewn by wives of the Tribal Council and is near authentic to the one worn many years ago by the famous Seminole Chief, Osceola. I suggest you do your homework before making unfounded accusations.
 
This whole Indian thing got out of control with today's PC environment simply put and a few others who just have a wild hair up somewhere. I understand the outrage in the caricatures to some extent but the others are just an example of PC stupidity IMO. Let's just band any mascots from any type of ethnic background then for that fact. Before you know it Notre Dame will have to change their mascot from the "Fighting Irish." How disrespectful! :lol:
 
The caricaturization of the Seminole mascot by Florida State has not always been so friendly. Read this exerpt from a book about the subject-
http://books.google.com/books?id=0TG2s-lIldYC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=%22florida+state+university%22+seminole+approved+mascot+merchandise&source=bl&ots=eEtMf9K2Av&sig=tTF9tAvlOYDUw8jB1YZYQMNreKo&hl=en&ei=NnimSuSjJMP-nQeoqai5Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=17#v=onepage&q=&f=false

They had various silly mascots named Sammy Seminole, who performed at football games in the 1960's and performed silly routines on the football field, and Chief Fullabull, who was "even more carnivalesque" than Sammy Seminole, and "ran around performing silly stunts and clownlike routines" at basketball games in the late 1960's. None of these early caricatures were approved by the Seminoles, and in fact they were enraged and opposed to them.
Chief Fullabull changed his name to Chief Wampumstompum, thinking it was less offensive, but it still was opposed by Seminole Indian leaders, and later it was changed to Yahola.
I the late 1960's another axe-wielding, feathered mascot and logo emerged named Savage Sam, a fierce warrior Indian. Finally after years of complaints about these mocking figures, the more respectful current Chief Osceola on horseback was developed as the mascot and logo in 1978.
Still the Seminole leaders never endorsed the mascots until recent years when one single governing body of a tribe of Seminoles in Oklahoma endorsed the mascot and logo. The Florida Seminole tribe, and other Seminole tribes did not.
 
Seminoles - King & Springwoods book.

Seminoles - King & Springwoods book.

Coach---I think you missed the boat on this one! While Mr. King & Springwoods book appears to be well researched, it is really a diatribe against indian mascots and subsequently even morphs into a long winded dissertation on race and race relations using the mascot situation, especially in the South. In effect, their book is not really a rational review of the mascot situation at all, but mearly uses that in a twisted and questionable fashion to support their viewpoint. They have done an admirable job of twisting some facts with some truths and the result is clearly a very biased book.
I suggest that if you or anyone else is truly interested in this issue, you go directly to the books "conclusions" which clearly delineate their true viewpoint and the real purpose of this book. In the meantime, the FSU Seminole game opening is teriffic , even if the team this year isn't.
 
I am no expert, but I am old enough to rememeber some of those insulting and cartoonish Seminole mascots from the 1960's and 1970's, so my point was to show that Florida State has not always been so respectful and honoring to the Native American culture as you first post suggested they were. Though the current FSU mascots use authentic Seminole garb, and they consult the Seminole tribe, and provide scholarships to Seminole members, these early mascots did not, and were widely criticized as insulting by Indian groups, and other groups.
Incidentally, both Chief Fullabull (retired in 1970) and Sammy Seminole (retired in 1972) were retired as mascots at the urging of the Seminole tribe.

http://unirel.fsu.edu/seminoles/pages/timeline.html

If you don't want to believe the publishings of independent researchers on the topics, here is Florida State's own "politically correct" version of the history of the Seminole mascots. They even admit this about their early mascots-
"In the early years, American Indian images were often portrayed in a cartoonish fashion. FSU mascots from Sammy Seminole to Chief Fullabull were more slapstick than respectful in nature to the people they claimed to represent."
http://unirel.fsu.edu/seminoles/

Here are more researchers who I hope you find credible-
http://www.bluecorncomics.com/seminole.htm

It's hard to even find pictures of Sammy Seminole, as history revisers have done a great job removing as many of them as possibe from existence.
But here are a thumbnail images of Sammy Seminole-
images


images
 
OK -- enough of these silly Indians...

how about a tough, challenging trivia question....

Long before Bradley adopted an Indian as their mascot, they were called something else...

Guess the nickname that was used in 1920-1921 for the Bradley athletic teams,
and what was the nickname given to the Bradley basketball team captain, Russell McMahon.
(hint, he was NOT 6ft-2)

Answers.......
The Bradley men were called the B-men
and the basketball captain was known widely as Shorty McMahon, he was 5-2



BTW- the Bradley History Club that year had a very fancy logo of an Indiana chief in full headdress
....wonder if they also were told to get rid of the insignia?
 
Seminoles

Seminoles

Coach: I certainly agree with you that the FSU mascots in the 1960s and 1970s were terrible and insulting as were the mascots of many schools during that era. However, as FSU football began building into a national power under Bobby Bowden in the late 70s and early 80s, the old bad mascots were changed and that change was done in a very proper way with the full involvement and approval of the Seminole Tribe. Today, the FSU Seminole is an honorable and exciting mascot and lends itself very well to the pagentry of FSU football. My point is that those who critisize it today simply don't understand how this evolved or have a big axe to grind like King & Springwood.
 
Wizard,

I believe the intent of this post was to show the hiprocracy of the NCAA in letting some schools with Indian based mascots/imagery remain, and even praised, while, apparently the NCAA arbitrarily punishes other schools who also have Indian based mascots/imagery/presentations....when only a very small handful of descendents of a particular Native American tribe find the same practices "offensive" vs a tribute.

I can not find any difference beetween what FSU has done with their use of Seminole Indian history, symbolism, pagentry to promote their sports programs and similar situations with University of Illinois and Bradley University....

Strange how one Indian Tribe finds the situation at FSU a mighty tribute to their culture, while other Indian Tribes find it so offensive for other schools to do the same thing with theirs!!

One question I have Wizard, at one time I thought I read there was some financial gain for the Seminole Indians from FSU's use of their name, rituals, symbolism etc. for their sports programs (residuals, fees, marketing/ merchandise sales etc) True?
 
AZ BU Fan said:
Strange how one Indian Tribe finds the situation at FSU a mighty tribute to their culture, while other Indian Tribes find it so offensive for other schools to do the same thing with theirs!!

One question I have Wizard, at one time I thought I read there was some financial gain for the Seminole Indians from FSU's use of their name, rituals, symbolism etc. for their sports programs (residuals, fees, marketing/ merchandise sales etc) True?
Click to expand...

How naive are you wizard? How much money do you think the Seminole tribe makes from the State of Florida for being allowed to operate casinos in that state? How many tax breaks do you think Florida gives this tribe? You can bet your @ss the Seminole Tribe is going to let a STATE UNIVERSITY use their likeness..... And I'll bet they probably get a cut of the revenue from everything sold with the word "Seminole" or the likeness of. If not directly then indirectly.

And this from Wikepedia: "The "Seminoles" are the symbol of the athletic teams of Florida State University. The university negotiated to gain agreement for use of the name with the 3,100-member Seminole Tribe of Florida and the 15,567-member Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, which officially approved the relationship and details of the images and costumes."


Before you attack us for our "unfounded accusations" I suggest you check both YOUR facts and the logic that you use to make this silly argument. This is a no-brainer slam dunk. It's why other institutions without the casino, lottery, gambling, and Reservation leverage that Florida has don't get the Native American support.

Pay to play, baby! :)
 
Braves4Life said:
And I'll bet they probably get a cut of the revenue from everything sold with the word "Seminole" or the likeness of. ..
Click to expand...

this is kept ultra secret and both the tribe and the university have issued various forms of denial, but..despite the rhetoric...

here's what's known for absolute sure...
that the Seminole tribe has gained hundreds of MILLIONS of dollars in the lucrative gaming industry,
enabled by extremely favorable legislation from the State of Florida.

Note these comments...
"Florida lawmakers passed a law to expand gambling in the state and offer a
new gambling compact to the Seminole Tribe"

"The Seminole Tribe operates seven casinos in Florida and owns the
restaurant chain Hard Rock Cafe. Under the new agreement, the Seminole
Tribe, which has been seeking state approval for Las Vegas-style slot
machines for years, would gain the exclusive right to operate slot machines .."

"The Seminoles may have gained the most from the law's passage..."


But the industry is shady and lots of stuff is going on...
"Soon after signing a 25-year compact with the state of Florida to allow for
exclusive, expanded gambling at the Seminole Tribes seven casino facilities,
Tribal Chairman Mitchell Cypress and others are being investigated by federal
regulators of Indian Affairs."

"There are 3,320 members of the Seminole Tribe of Florida, each of them
receive approximately $120,000 annually as their share of casino profits. In
addition, any member that would like to have a house built, can receive
funds of up to $200,000 for that purpose from tribal monies, each individual
is responsible for any more than that."
http://www.onlinecasinoadvisory.com...nole-indian-florida-benefits-illegal-1168.htm

But the tribe still doesn't even follow the laws and the Sumpreme Court rulings!
http://www.onlinecasinoadvisory.com...-comes-to-seminole-immokalee-casino-42371.htm


and there are numerous sources suggesting the tribe benefits directly as well with revenue from marketing...
....and when the NCAA's ban first occurred, Florida State was under the ban but they bought their way out of that, too...
http://www.seminoles.com/genrel/080505aab.html



BTW-- did you know that the ACTUAL NAME of the chant or droning "war chant" that the students use along with their tomahawk arm motion is called...
"MASSACRE"...
http://media.www.dailyorange.com/me....Tribes.Consent.Since.1947-747932-page2.shtml
 
Seminoles

Seminoles

AZBU Fan: I agree with you! I think the entire mascot thing was overdone and wrong. It was and is a prime example of"Tyranny by the minority". While I feel that there were some pastmascot situations that were bad and needed changing, the NCAA as usual was wrong and ill-advised and went way beyond what was necessary. U. of I should be allowed Chief Illiniwek and the Bradley Indian was doing harm to no one. FSU was very lucky and handled the matter in a way that made it virtually impossible for the NCAA to come down on them.
 
Seminoles & Casinos

Seminoles & Casinos

Braves 4 L & Tornado--- What is your hang-up on this issue? You guys still don't get it! Trying to link the FSU Seminole with Indian owned casinos and restaurants in some kind of grand conspiracy in Florida is completely off the wall and unfounded.
29 states have indian owned casinos. California has 58 of them! The largest casino in the world is Foxwood in Connecticut. Indians have been given many "rights" by the Federal and several State governments that non-indians do not have. These include fishing and hunting rights in Alaska, Washington, and Oregon. All of this is based on past maltreatment of native Americans. Florida is only one of many states where this has happened.
You make implications and innuendos but you don't really have any true facts nor are either of you close enough to the situation at FSU to really understand how it evolved.
The real issue is that you guys don't like FSU because they have an indian mascot while the inconsistant NCAA came down on U of I, Bradley, and others who are not allowed indian mascots. I also wish U of I and BU could have an indian mascot but I'm not going to bend the truth in some childlike effort to support my angry viewpoint.
 
wizard said:
..but you don't really have any true facts ..
Click to expand...

what?? I have offered exactly ZERO conjecture and opinion...in my one and only post on the subject...
I have instead offered simply cut-and-pasted quotes, links, and facts...take them or leave them...but I suspect
the people who are writing those articles and columns have done the research and know more than you or I.
or is it that I have an opinion on the subject that you object to?
 
wizard said:
Braves 4 L & Tornado--- What is your hang-up on this issue? ....... you don't really have any true facts
Click to expand...

And you do? :o

You $pin your opinion and I'll $tate mine. You believe what you want; that'$ OK. I just think it'$ rather obviou$ why the $eminole tribe does not object to FSU'$ use of their name or likene$$.
 
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