Discussion on Morning Joe this morning is that the Sweet 16 has no Cinderella teams, all Power 5 conferences. Causes include transfers of players from the portal, NIL money, and coaches leaving programs as frequent as players leave to obtain more money. Some coaches do not want to recruit high school players. It should no longer be called March Madness. Commentators stated that they are not sure how this process will play out in the future, but believe there will be less interest in watching teams. Duke looks unbeatable.
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No more Cinderellas
- Thread starter molar50
- Start date
In addition to no Cinderellas, there hadn't been a buzzer beater until Maryland on Sunday. There have been a few good games, but rather boring tournament so far. Need more mid-majors...if P5 teams don't have a .500 record in conference, they shouldn't be eligible for a bid unless they win their tournament.
LittleBrave
Active member
This will be the norm in the years to come the way they use the NET as the main metric for selecting teams, NIL $$, etc.
I feel like it's really a great thing now for a mid major to win the NIT as it's like bragging rights for the non power schools.
There are some GREAT teams left in the NIT, with the mid-majors dominating the field, though Loyola from the A-10 is a top-tier conf. I don't think there's any coincidence that the Final 4 is now at HInkle Fieldhouse - more appropriate for mid majors than Madison Sq Garden. Since 2003, only a couple of mid-majors (not including the A-10 which is really more a MAJOR conf.) have won the title since 2003, including Wichita St. in 2011 and N. Texas in 2023.
RPI rankings (a better indicator of team strength IMO) of teams in Elite 8:
25 UC-Irvine
41 Bradley
45 North TX
63 Kent St
68 Chatanooga
69 LUC
71 UAB
131 OK St. (only team from a power conf)
For sure it will be a great accomplishment to win the NIT this season with the teams left to battle for the crown!
I feel like it's really a great thing now for a mid major to win the NIT as it's like bragging rights for the non power schools.
There are some GREAT teams left in the NIT, with the mid-majors dominating the field, though Loyola from the A-10 is a top-tier conf. I don't think there's any coincidence that the Final 4 is now at HInkle Fieldhouse - more appropriate for mid majors than Madison Sq Garden. Since 2003, only a couple of mid-majors (not including the A-10 which is really more a MAJOR conf.) have won the title since 2003, including Wichita St. in 2011 and N. Texas in 2023.
RPI rankings (a better indicator of team strength IMO) of teams in Elite 8:
25 UC-Irvine
41 Bradley
45 North TX
63 Kent St
68 Chatanooga
69 LUC
71 UAB
131 OK St. (only team from a power conf)
For sure it will be a great accomplishment to win the NIT this season with the teams left to battle for the crown!
Tommy
Well-known member
They failed to mention the decreasing number of mid-majors invited to the tournament, along with the terrible seeding. Those two factors make it all but impossible for a Cinderella ever again. When a team like Drake can win 30 games and garner no better than an 11 seed, what hope is there? They've basically decided that unless you're PC, you aren't going to be the favorite in any game, and the results are turning out exactly the way they want.
Stryker
New member
What you are you on man? NIT is nearly meaningless these days. It's entirely a mid-major tournament now that gets little attention, especially with the power teams not in the NCAA tournament in the new Vegas tournament. Also the A10 is far from a power/major conference. It is definitively a mid-major conference. The A10 has been a 1 bid league 2 out of the past 3 years. Show me any conference that is considered a power conference with only the AQ. They don't exist.
And how is Hinkle better than MSG? MSG is the prestige venue for basketball in America, and has been for decades. Does it "fit" the mid-major feel of the NIT? Of course, but acting like it is somehow better than MSG is naive.
Stryker
New member
This is what I posted in another thread this morning -
And here we are a few years into new transfer rules and NIL deals, and not one mid-major is in the S16. Everyone said the the last couple of years that NIL and the transfer has no real impact...citing St. Peters, Princeton, FAU, SDSU etc. However, I would say those were flukes and happenstance coming out of the COVID eligibility rules and other factors. Now that we are fully past the COVID issues and the new rules have had time to sink in, it may be the end of seeing mid-majors in the S16 ever again. Colorado State came very close yesterday, until a phenom freshman that would never ever play at a mid-major drove to the hoop and put the game away in the final seconds.
NIL and transfer rules will inevitably concentrate all the talent at the power schools. Another argument from the big schools is that their bench players will transfer down a level to play. However, as we have seen for decades, most players are more than happy to ride the bench at a blue blood or other power program, getting 5 minutes a game of playing time, if it means they get paid and can be part of a winning program. Also by definition this argument is saying less talented players are coming down. And what we have seen is that the bench players from power programs that transfer don't actually go to mid-majors most of the time, they transfer to bottom power conference teams because the money is still better there than at mid-majors.
IMO we are witnessing the death of the sport in real time. It will only get worse.
And here we are a few years into new transfer rules and NIL deals, and not one mid-major is in the S16. Everyone said the the last couple of years that NIL and the transfer has no real impact...citing St. Peters, Princeton, FAU, SDSU etc. However, I would say those were flukes and happenstance coming out of the COVID eligibility rules and other factors. Now that we are fully past the COVID issues and the new rules have had time to sink in, it may be the end of seeing mid-majors in the S16 ever again. Colorado State came very close yesterday, until a phenom freshman that would never ever play at a mid-major drove to the hoop and put the game away in the final seconds.
NIL and transfer rules will inevitably concentrate all the talent at the power schools. Another argument from the big schools is that their bench players will transfer down a level to play. However, as we have seen for decades, most players are more than happy to ride the bench at a blue blood or other power program, getting 5 minutes a game of playing time, if it means they get paid and can be part of a winning program. Also by definition this argument is saying less talented players are coming down. And what we have seen is that the bench players from power programs that transfer don't actually go to mid-majors most of the time, they transfer to bottom power conference teams because the money is still better there than at mid-majors.
IMO we are witnessing the death of the sport in real time. It will only get worse.
Yes, this year was a record low for at-large mid-major bids. If the mid-majors are not given a chance, that will always result in fewer wins and less schools advancing to the Sweet 16.
Sorry if this was mentioned, but another factor is that the Power Conferences have been expanding and have started to absorb a few of the more successful mid-majors like Houston. now in the Big 12 along with UCF, Cincinnati, and BYU.
LittleBrave
Active member
I guess we are way different in our perspectives. I'm treating this NIT run for BU as a great thing, even if we missed out on the Big Dance as it should be for us fans. I don't care for MSG and would MUCH prefer Hinkle - no question!
Mid major fans should be relishing in the NIT as a great tournament especially in recent years as it becomes even more difficult to get into the (Watered Down) Field of 68. Even if the majority "overlook" it, screw them. It means something to Braves fans and to any other team (minus Ok St maybe) left!
LittleBrave
Active member
Talk about grim - someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning! Man, are you positive about anything?
LittleBrave
Active member
Do you realize how weak the teams are in this new Vegas tournament compared to the NIT teams? Not even close to compare.
Only 4 of the 16 teams even are in the Top 100 RPI, and you've got DePaul in the 200+
This tourney will most likely in a few years gain the same interest level as the CBI and CIT (which is now the LV tourney). True that you've got much bigger names (of teams) in the LV tourney, but he winner should not be able to toot their horn with such a weak field.
Stryker
New member
Talk about grim - someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning! Man, are you positive about anything?
Lol, wish I could be more positive. Its a sad state of affairs, and IMO there are little positives to be hopeful about with the way things are trending. I don't think most fans understand yet how these changes are going to impact the sport. It could be absolutely devastating to a lot of programs.
MacabreMob
New member
I'm with Stryker on this. And I don't view it in a positive vs negative way - just making a statement without any sugar coating. The Power 5 or BCS are gonna get exactly what they want.
tomahawk chop
Member
I have seen so many players travel this year and refs fail to get this call right. I wish they would do away with the Euro step and the jump step and get back to calling games by the old better rules. I also wish the refs would quit letting players palm the ball as that has gotten out of control.The 3 seconds in the lane is another rule that pretty much gets ignored all the time.
tomahawk chop
Member
Because the travelling was not called it kept a cinderella team out of the sweet 16.
Tommy
Well-known member
Exactly right! It’s a conspiracy!
MacabreMob
New member
I know Colo St was a 12 seed and I know the Mountain West isn't a Power 5 or BCS conference, but I don't view Colo St or the Mountain West as Mid-major.
Feeling disappointed that they didn't advance as a Cinderella is exactly what the Power5 and BCS wants all of us to believe. Their view of a great March Madness filled with Cinderella stories are like watching a BCS Play-in Team like Texas advancing to the Final 4. That's what they think is magical in March Madness. They think that will make people wanna watch it more; attend more events; spend more money, etc.
And that misses the point of the Cinderella story completely. That will eventually drive the fever pitched enthusiasm away from the event and sport. Won't kill college hoops, just change it to something else. A boring collection of games showing off individual players creating highlights of dunks. Heck - might as well just admit the finished product desired by the Power5/BCS is something like an And1 event.
Feeling disappointed that they didn't advance as a Cinderella is exactly what the Power5 and BCS wants all of us to believe. Their view of a great March Madness filled with Cinderella stories are like watching a BCS Play-in Team like Texas advancing to the Final 4. That's what they think is magical in March Madness. They think that will make people wanna watch it more; attend more events; spend more money, etc.
And that misses the point of the Cinderella story completely. That will eventually drive the fever pitched enthusiasm away from the event and sport. Won't kill college hoops, just change it to something else. A boring collection of games showing off individual players creating highlights of dunks. Heck - might as well just admit the finished product desired by the Power5/BCS is something like an And1 event.
LittleBrave
Active member
How did NOBODY doing the broadcast even question a travel there! I just saw it and easily 3-steps - shoulda been a travel call. What a shame for Colorado St.
Tommy
Well-known member
I agree with your point fully, other than mid-major. According to Google:
In men's college basketball, a mid-major is typically defined as a team that is not a member of one of the six major conferences (ACC, Big East, Pac-12, SEC, Big Ten, Big 12) and is outside the "power conferences" of the Big Ten, Big 12, SEC, ACC, and Big East. The term "mid-major" was coined in 1977 by Jack Kvancz, the head coach of men's basketball at Catholic University of America. The NCAA does not use the terms "major" or "mid-major" to differentiate between Division I athletic conferences, but the term is commonly used by analysts and fans to describe teams that are not part of the power conferences.
wily coyote
Active member
LB you are 100% correct. No one even mentioned a possible travel. According to the rules a player is only allowed 1 1/2 steps after he picks up his dribble. He than must shoot or pass the ball before his second foot hits the floor.I've watched the replay many times and its safe to say he took 3 steps. That probably would have been called in the NBA and they don't call much.