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OT: Caterpillar threatening to leave Illinois!

This discussion is about corporate taxes not some percentage of overall state revenues. It is the corporate income taxes thatare driving companies out of Illinois. Last time I checked, trucking companies were subject to this corporate income tax, and Illinois has one of the highest in the entire country. I know someone who moved his business from Illinois to Wisconsin and saved millions in taxes.
Spin things any way you want but Illinois is nearly bankrupt thanks to the cozy deals between Madigan and the Dems and the state unions. Now there isn't enough money to pay the unfunded pension commitments. The corporate taxes are among the highest in the US. It's ludicrous to suggest they are not driving businesses out of the state.
 
People always complaining about taxes kill me. You do want schools don't you? Roads....police protection....snow plowed....parks....???

Illinois residents are certainly not overtaxed and if the increase in state income taxes expire we are going to be in even worse financial straits. Do we have ot make changes? For sure, but cutting the revenue is not the solution. I gladly pay my taxes and appreciate the services I receive.
 
We all pay our taxes. I am a private business owner and even with the big jump in income taxes, I happily pay the taxes (plus I don't need the tax people hunting me down :)). But it just gets passed along to the customers and that hurts business. It's the faulty logic of some politicians that simply raising taxes will solve the massive debt and revenue deficiency. It's been shown many times that lowering taxes actually expands businesses and the economy, draws new businesses, employs more people, and in the end generates more tax revenue. It is the lower tax States that are seeing an economical boom right now and low unemployment.

Thanks for the debate. I doubt we'll change each other's minds. Gotta get back to the game I'm watching.
 
I believe it was Blago who put the biggest hit on the trucking industry in Illinois It may have been more of an increase in fee's than a tax increase that he added on.


Don't blame public employees for the mess this state is in! The problem is/was politicians that wanted to keep giving away goodies to help their reelection chances but had to use gimmicks like not paying into pension funds so that they didn't have to raise the revenue to cover what they were spending!


Not that I want to see taxes raised but in reality the overall tax burden in Illinois is actually low compared to our neighboring states. if you are interested in this political stuff go check out www.capitolfax.com for all the Illinois political info you could want!
 
Shock1 said:
What tax was implemented targeting the trucking industry? ...
Click to expand...

It was a story that was barely covered by the media - but...along the line of telling business owners "You didn't build that"....
Quinn told the truckers that the state was subsidizing them with road repairs and needed to lay more taxes on truckers- Quinn imposed new taxes that effectively meant any big truck using diesel fuel would have to pay about $1000 more per year.....
It was taxation that the truckers could avoid by registering their trucks in other states - which the Star trucking owner sought to do -- first Oklahoma, then transferring ownership of the entire business to Arizona....now the entire business and operations are in Arizona..
notice his business is no longer even called Star Trucking or Star Transport -as that aspect of the business is now in Arizona
With >1000 vehicles registered in Illinois back in 2008, the owner of Star openly stated in the press if Quinn did this, he'd consider moving his operations out of Illinois because he simply could not afford $1 million in extra taxes - and ...quietly, gradually he made good on his promise.

When Quinn started enacting his new taxes, the state of Illinois lost MORE jobs and more businesses than any other state
http://www.businessinsider.com/illinois-loses-most-jobs-in-the-nation-following-tax-hike-2011-8



Shock1 said:
People always complaining about taxes kill me...
Click to expand...
well people have been complaining about taxes since taxes were invented, and I haven't met anyone yet who likes paying taxes...
But... I have paid my share of taxes, so I think that qualifies me as an expert...and I am convinced that a HUGE portion of what we all pay in taxes
is wasted or ends up either in the hands of people who do not need nor deserve it or ends up in the pockets of crooked politicians and their cronies.
If I ran my business as crooked and as blatantly corruptly or inefficiently as the state runs theirs, I can guarantee people would be complaining about me, so I think the complaints are fair..
 
Shock1 said:
People always complaining about taxes kill me. You do want schools don't you? Roads....police protection....snow plowed....parks....???
Click to expand...

Other states have these same services yet many pay a fraction of what we do and still manage to keep the states finances in line.

Shock1 said:
Illinois residents are certainly not overtaxed and if the increase in state income taxes expire we are going to be in even worse financial straits. Do we have ot make changes? For sure, but cutting the revenue is not the solution.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure where you live but I pay 12k a year in property taxes which is roughly 4% of the value of my home. If I moved to Indiana and bought a similar house, I would be in the 4-6k range. I'm obviously going to be sensitive to any increase in income tax since the state is structured to put a higher tax burden on the municipalities.
 
Shock1 said:
"If you recall, Governor Quinn decided to tax the heck out of the trucking industry"

Can you expand on that? What tax was implemented targeting the trucking industry?

Aren't they going to hurry back to Illinois now that Rauner is elected?
Click to expand...

The method of calculating the apportionment factor was changed, effective for all years ending on or after 12/31/2008.

Instead of apportioning by revenue ton miles (Illinois miles/Everywhere Miles), it became a much more complex factor adjusted to Gross Receipts.

I'm a CPA, and the biggest problem Trucking Companies are having is tracking the miles in order to comply with the new law. The new law doesn't change the factor (percentage of Illinois Business Income subject to tax) by much. The bigger problem is tracking ALL of the miles.

Just to give an example of how complex the law has become: Company Y picks up goods in Kansas City and drop ships it in Indianapolis. Even though they are picking up and drop shipping the items outside of Illinois, since they are using I-70 in Illinois to transport the goods, Illinois is taxing a portion of the invoice ((Illinois Miles/Everywhere Miles)X Invoice Receipts).

That in it of itself is not all that different from how other states tax transportation companies. The problem is using this application for EVERY invoice! Imagine how difficult it would be to come up with the right apportionment factor if you are a large transportation company that has thousands of invoices! Thus the real problem is the cost associated with the man hours needed to comply with the new law. That is if Transportation companies can change their internal systems to track receipts this way! It really does not generate that much more revenue for the State of Illinois, from what I have seen.

What's worse is that Illinois still has not provided a regulation for the new law. If you read the IITA, it is very difficult to determine what Illinois wants.

I would guess the frustration with trying to comply with the new law is the bigger issue with Star Transport, but I do not know all the facts in that situation.
 
Da Coach said:
This discussion is about corporate taxes not some percentage of overall state revenues. It is the corporate income taxes thatare driving companies out of Illinois. Last time I checked, trucking companies were subject to this corporate income tax, and Illinois has one of the highest in the entire country. I know someone who moved his business from Illinois to Wisconsin and saved millions in taxes.
Spin things any way you want but Illinois is nearly bankrupt thanks to the cozy deals between Madigan and the Dems and the state unions. Now there isn't enough money to pay the unfunded pension commitments. The corporate taxes are among the highest in the US. It's ludicrous to suggest they are not driving businesses out of the state.
Click to expand...

This is true. I think the 9.5% Corporate Rate, (7% IT +2.5% RT) in addition to the suspension of the Carry Forward of Illinois Net Losses is what truly hurt a lot of Corporations in Illinois. That is a much bigger problem than changing the law for the Transportation Factor.

The Factor simply provides a shift in tax burden from one state to another and would not a have huge impact on most transportation companies. If their factor increases in Illinois, it will be lower in other states.

The increase in the Corporate Rate was rather unnecessary when you consider the fact that corporate tax revenue represents only 6-8% of the revenue generated by Illinois. It is tied to the increase in the Individual rate, however.
 
Shock1 said:
I am talking about state tax burdens:

http://taxfoundation.org/article/annual-state-local-tax-burden-ranking-fy-2011

Still waiting for the trucking taxes...
Click to expand...




By the way, that page Shock1 linked to was from 2011, before additional massive tax hikes took effect in Illinois.
In 2011, the Democrats used a lame duck session to raise personal income taxes 67%, and raise corporate income taxes 46%.
http://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/illinois-is-a-high-tax-state/


Those changes were promised to be temporary, but we all know that a Democratic controlled state legislature is not going to allow those huge tax hikes to expire.


Illlinois now has one of the highest income tax structures in the country-
http://www.chicagomag.com/real-esta...-Second-Highest-Property-Taxes-in-the-Nation/


Illinois, combined with the high local sales taxes, is in the top 10 of all states in average sales taxes-
http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0612/10-states-with-high-sales-taxes.aspx


Illinois also has the 2nd highest property taxes in the entire country.
http://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-has-the-2nd-highest-property-taxes-in-nation/

And, as was the original topic of this debate, Illinois had the 2nd highest corporate income tax rate in the country when the increase was passed in 2011-
http://taxfoundation.org/article/illinois-corporate-tax-hike-inches-us-closer-1-ranking-globally


It is now said that the Illinois corporate income tax is the 4th highest in the world-
http://quincyjournal.com/illinois-4...x-rate-in-the-industrial-world1356100351.html


And just to stay consistent, Illinois also has the 6th highest gasoline taxes among the 50 states-
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-anEIVZ9RGSk/U445ensFnJI/AAAAAAAAZ84/9WYwuhU_-GQ/s1600/gas+taxes.png
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/top-10-states-highest-gasoline-taxes/story?id=20093917#6




So it is no surprise that trucking companies are flocking out of the state.
Here is a recent article with a good example- about a trucking business that pulled up and moved to Indiana.
http://www.chicagonow.com/publius-f...state-senator-moves-business-out-of-illinois/
 
Check out the actual numbers that affect the trucking industry - namely the price of diesel fuel...
note also the 20 to 30 cents per gallon difference between diesel prices in Illinois vs. Iowa or Missouri - largely a reflection of taxes in Illinois
http://fuelgaugereport.aaa.com/


In fact - mostly due to higher tax rates, the price of diesel fuel currently is higher in Illinois than in 42 other states....and higher than virtually every other midwestern state..
there are only 3 other states, as you can see, that tax diesel fuel higher than Illinois (CA, CT, PA)
http://www.truckmiles.com/FuelPrices.asp



***btw it wasn't my main intent to start a political debate - only to present some interesting news that everyone else missed about Star Trucking -
a firm that almost everyone in Central Illinois knows and drives right by when passing thru Morton, and every Bradley fan has "fond" memories of because of the NCAA sanctions in 2005.
BUT - it is interesting that the news people make a big deal if a trivial issue occurs with a Bradley student-athlete employed there, or if gas prices skyrocket - or even if the tax situation causes a flurry of billboards as the Governor drives jobs out of Illinois into Indiana or Wisconsin --
yet the local news media totally missed this story of Star Transport shifting all their operations out of state and closing their entire business inside the state if IL down - even moving every one of 1000 trucks to another base of operations in another state.
 
Last edited:
Setting aside corporate tax issues of Illinois, Cat could decide to move Peoria HQ and WW marketing staff somewhere else where:
  • Weather is better
  • Newer infastructure
  • State, County and local personal taxes are way less
  • No dysfunctional small town city and regional govs
  • There is more to do than catch Asian Carp in a dirty river or go to Civic Center productions

If you want to hire and retain top talent from around the world, who have to work/live at the WW HQ to climb the corporate ladder,
better have the HQ in a place that your potential talent pool WANT TO live in long term. They have choices.

Frankly, I am amazed Cat has kept HQ in Peoria for as long as it has. Not exactly top 10 for Millennials, "Net" Generation, or Gen Z folks.


.
 
AZ BU Fan said:
Setting aside corporate tax issues of Illinois, Cat could decide to move Peoria HQ and WW marketing staff somewhere else where:
  • Weather is better
  • Newer infastructure
  • State, County and local personal taxes are way less
  • No dysfunctional small town city and regional govs
  • There is more to do than catch Asian Carp in a dirty river or go to Civic Center productions

If you want to hire and retain top talent from around the world, who have to work/live at the WW HQ to climb the corporate ladder,
better have the HQ in a place that your potential talent pool WANT TO live in long term. They have choices.

Frankly, I am amazed Cat has kept HQ in Peoria for as long as it has. Not exactly top 10 for Millennials, "Net" Generation, or Gen Z folks.


.
Click to expand...


Peoria, Arizona perhaps??

How are the State, County and local personal taxes there?
 
Well, since you asked....

Property taxes (city, county, schools, misc) on a similarly priced home

Dunlap ILL area home $13,500 last year I lived there (2009)

Buckeye Az area home $4,100 in 2013

State Income Tax Rates
ILL 5% on Federal Adjusted Gross Income

AZ 2.9% on Federal Net Income
I also get to take a income deduction on my Az State Tax Return for all medical/health expenditures.

Sales Taxes
Peoria ILL 8.25%
Buckeye Az 8.30%

I live 25 minutes from Peoria Az and their taxes would be similar to
where I live...

Hate to say it, but weather here is better, even with hot summers. Mountain/Desert scenery is great vs Midwest plains. I am 45 min from downtown Phoenix (6th largest city in US), vs 3 hr from Peoria to downtown Chicago. I have major league baseball, basketball, football, hockey, PGA golf tournament, NASCAR, ASU Pac 12 sports, MLB Spring Training, and National Parks/Monuments all within an 60-90 minutes of my home. Have largest university in US (Arizona State) here as well. Did I mention near by Scottsdale? Grand Canyon? Snow skiing in Flagstaff on 11,500 ft Mt Humphrey? Vegas 3 hours away, LA & SD 5.5 hours away.

Great roads, great schools (don't believe what you hear/read in media - middle/upper middle class neighborhood schools in metro/suburban areas are first rate).

Tough gig here.

This is what Cat is up against when recruiting global college grads to come to Peoria IL for their careers or retaining top Cat execs in Peoria area vs them looking at other major metro areas in the South, South West, and West.
 
Did anyone actually think they were going to move out of Peoria? They had many fooled by this big show. They announce a press conference 10 days ago to be held in Peoria. If that wasn't a clue to what they had planned then they had a lot of so-called smart people fooled.
 
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