Reality

[AZ BU Fan]

Don't mean to blow up this Forum, but, BU has not won a MVC Regular Season title in 24 years, with exactly 1 2nd place finish. . This program has had a handful of miracle post season runs this century, but, other than that, has been lackluster. It is a testament to faith its remaining fan base continues to believe BU MBB can regain last century's glory. Drake's dominence this year is a slap in the face to BU fans who have provided BU MBB with more resources/support than any other MVC program and have little to show for it. Best facilities in the MVC have done little to draw top players that can consistently win in the MVC and produce championships, not just a couple miracle Tournament runs (MVC and NCAA). I respect Wardle, but his MVC Conference record is no better than Geno's. Now, add player suspensions, and one has to wonder if he has taken BU as far as he can.

 

[Tommy]

One major flaw with your summary, AZ. Wardle's teams until this year had shown steady improvement, while Geno's teams all slowly declined. Also, Geno didn't take over a team near the end of a recruiting season where all but one player left. Let's not forget that Wardle's first team comprised ALL new players except for Donte Thomas.

This year has been disappointing, but to just brush aside what Wardle has done for this program is unfair. Winning 2 consecutive MVC titles was huge for us, and being there for both of them, that was some great basketball to see. That comeback against UNI in 2019 was one of the most exciting games I've ever seen in my life.

It would be great to win the conference, but in reality it's relatively meaningless since more often than not, it's only the conference tournament champ that gets an invite to the NCAA when you're a mid-major. Of course that's all a moot point if you can get yourself ranked or close to it, as Drake has shown, but that's a total crap shoot with the unfair treatment mid-majors get when it comes to the whole ranking process.

Now if your frustration with the program is coming from the recent mysterious suspensions and lack of details, then we are on the same page. I just am not ready to throw in the towel on BW who has done wonders for this program, and if we can get back to normalcy and out of these ridiculous COVID restrictions, where we are able to hold regular practices with a regular game schedule, I have no doubt we'll bounce right back to the team we thought we had at the beginning of the year.

 

[BUfan17]

Last year people were talking about being so worried about him jumping ship if we made the tournament again. This year has been really weird overall and not just for us. Just look at all the blue bloods having an off year, Kentucky, Duke, UNC, and Michigan St. to name a few. It is pretty obvious there seems to be some team attitude/chemistry problems. Hopefully we can work through them, like I said this has been a weird year for everyone. It is sad it has ended up this way especially being Childs last year if he doesn't come back next season. I trust Wardle for a couple more years, I think we can write this year off as an outlier hopefully. Yeah his MVC record is similar to Geno's but we've been in a steady incline compared to Geno's decline over the years.

 

[LittleBrave]

Last year people were talking about being so worried about him jumping ship if we made the tournament again. This year has been really weird overall and not just for us. Just look at all the blue bloods having an off year, Kentucky, Duke, UNC, and Michigan St. to name a few. It is pretty obvious there seems to be some team attitude/chemistry problems. Hopefully we can work through them, like I said this has been a weird year for everyone. It is sad it has ended up this way especially being Childs last year if he doesn't come back next season. I trust Wardle for a couple more years, I think we can write this year off as an outlier hopefully. Yeah his MVC record is similar to Geno's but we've been in a steady incline compared to Geno's decline over the years.

Great post BUfan17, and I kind of see this as the true "reality". I think we have to keep the Covid barriers in perspective.
A lot of College football teams were devastated by Covid too.

If we see similar results NEXT season, it simply will be UNACCEPTABLE for this program.
I think we should have expcectations for a Valley Championship run. We haven't been competing for one in decades (which is really sad), as eluded to by AZ BU fan.

 

[LittleBrave]

Though it's been a frustrating reality not to see BU contend for the regular season crown in decades, we should have more hope knowing we've been successful in Arch Madness - an accomplishment we hadn't seen in 3 decades (though I believe we were runner-up 3 seasons since 1990...sigh)

So it's not out of the realm of expectation, and I do hope we can be a contender more years than not going fw with Wardle.
Sometimes he has us scratching our heads with this or that, but overall, I've been pleased with his tenure.

 

[Dub]

I think AZ's comments are a good reality check. This is a results-based "business" and reg season conference championships are a good measure.... one in which we have fallen short.

On the other hand, the ultimate measure for our program (in my opinion), is NCAA appearances and NCAA wins. There we have made strides.

What we have lacked in our program since about 1989 is consistency of excellence and winning seasons that span longer periods. On a more detail level, we also lack consistency within a season (2020/21 being exhibit A.) And on a micro level, we lack consistency within the games themselves.

What I thought I was seeing emerge coming into this season was the solidification of a system that would begin to finally support the consistency I'm talking about. Prior to that in Wardle's tenure we were working with a system that was only partially installed.

This current dip has me wondering a bit. But at the end of the day, this passion we share is supposed to be beneficial, and fun.... an escape from life's problems, not one more problem to add to the list. Stay tuned, focus on the positive, take the good and leave the bad behind for a minute. They will make us proud again.

 

[AZ BU Fan]

Being a BU MBB fan is like being a Cub fan... Always next year!

 

[LittleBrave]

Being a BU MBB fan is like being a Cub fan... Always next year!

Yes indeed.

But I just saw the news about the 4 guys still under suspension and my mood just plummeted.
I think at this point we deserve to know what's going on! These 4 guys are good young men and have not been in any kind of trouble at BU prior.

 

[BUfan39]

Being a BU MBB fan is like being a Cub fan... Always next year!

So much better being a Cardinals fan my guy

 

[KillerB]

I respect Wardle, but his MVC Conference record is no better than Geno's.

I have to take a little exception with this.
In 4 years Ford was 46 - 86 overall and 19-53 in Valley play. He also inherited some pretty good players (Taylor Brown, Walt Lemon, DSE, Jordon Prosser).
Brian Wardle's record is now 81-86 overall and 41-52 in Valley play. That includes a first year with only one player returning and no recruits when BW took the job after the Valley tourney. That first year the team went 5-27 overall and 3-15 in the valley.
I would like to see a regular season championship like everyone else.. so on that front we still are not up to expectations. But to say BW's record is no better is not even close to accurate. And it includes two tournament championships which is what gets you in the NCAA. Would you give those up for a regular season title?

 

[Da Coach]

Yes, KillerB, I think most of us would agree. The record I think is most fair to compare is where were those two coaches at year 3 or 4, when they had time to build a roster of their own players.
In year 3, Geno was 12-20, and finished the season as a #7 seed in the MVC playing in the play-in round. And his RPI was 269.
In year 4, he was 9-24, and 3-15 in the MVC, dead last, #10 seed. His RPI was 288. His teams were getting worse each year after the inherited players were gone. Even worse, he had serious discipline issues and multiple players who were dealing with legal problems (recall the Big Al's incident). Geno's teams played in the Thursday play-in games all 4 years. And we won't even mention that the team averaged just 57 ppg in year 4 for Geno's supposed up-tempo offense. There were numerous blowouts with margins of 20 or 30 points, including multiple 30+ blowouts on our home court. And, Geno never recruited a single player who was named to any of the All-Conference teams during his 4-year tenure, and he had ZERO recruits committed at the time he was fired.

In year 3, Coach Wardle was 20-13, and 9-9 in the MVC. He avoided the play-in game, and his RPI was 105.
Year 4, Wardle was 20-15, and 9-9 in the MVC. RPI was 155. There was not a single legal issue. There were few true blowouts. He had multiple All-Conference players, and some very good recruits to add to the roster that anyone could see we were headed in the right direction. His teams averaged at least 10 ppg more than Geno's 3rd and 4th teams. And the plummeting attendance numbers had stabilized.

 

[KMart]

I believe in Brian Wardle and the direction this program is going. I have been excited every year with the recruits he brings in and the potential many of them show. While I understand there is frustrations with lack of regular season conference championships (I was hopeful we would have 1 by now), I do understand that a lot of things need to go right to get there (lack of major injuries, players understanding their role, players not slumping all at the same time). So while it's disappointing we have not gotten there yet, I feel optimistic that the next year could always be the one year to year now.

I believe we are now in year 6 of the Brian Wardle era and I do not feel we have backtracked enough to not be able to make a run next year and so on. With Geno's team, we just consistently got worse and we never got to that "compete for a championship" level like we have with Wardle. If we had a full offseason and less COVID restrictions right now, I don't believe this thread would even exist. I'm disappointed in how this season ended up, but I feel Wardle is still the best man for the job to right the ship going forward.

 

[BUfan14]

I think most people, including myself at times, expect progress to be a consistent arrow up in building a college program. But when I look at the records of two successful MVC programs built, Loyola and Nothern Iowa, it wasn’t a straight up arrow.

Loyola had an initial success around year 4 (2nd year in the Valley, 4th for Porter they won the CBI and 24 games), then it took three more years for their final four season, now they’ve established consistency with occasional great seasons.

Norther Iowa had success in year 3 and 4 under Jacobsen, then it took until year 9 and 10 to be really great again. They then actually had three sub par years recently until last year.

I think it takes that second set of four years to establish consistency because once success is established, the recruits you get from that are two to three years away and then they have to develop. Recruiting happens so many years before kids are actually in college now, I don’t know if you gain an immediate benefit (outside of transfers) from recent success as a mid-major because those recruits have already established relationships.

I think under Jim Les we had two really great years that I think should have put us in the NCAA twice. That 06-07 team was fun to watch! The 07-08 team disappointed in some ways but was still decent. Then we had some average years back to Earth but I think around year 9-10 were going to pick back up until disaster struck with injuries in 10-11. Who knows what happens in 11-12 if we tried it once more. I think the same is true with Brian, we have had some initial breakthrough success years 4-5, we’ve stepped back now for sure this year and realistically maybe next year too, now let’s give it another recruiting cycle of three to four years and see if we can take that next step and be consistent. I still like a lineup of East, Ville, Kent/Hickman, Hannah, Mast in two years, four of which will still be here in three years.

 

[AZ BU Fan]

Forget the comparison to Ford. BU still hasn't sniffed a regular season title forever. After this season, not looking particularly good for the future either. The rose colored glasses work overtime for BU fans. I would exchange two miracle MVC Tourney titles for 2 or more MVC Conference Champiinships - a whole season's worth of pleasure vs a weekend quickie. Plus, odds of MVC/NCAA Tourney wins by a Regular Season Champion better than miracle runs. Why can't BU succeed? Some seasons BU just stinks. Some years BU has talent and still can't win a conference title. Is there anyone who can lead this program to a conference title? 1st Team All MVC players or 1st Team All Frosh players seem always hard to find on BU Team rosters .... . I'm getting old and hope to see BU as MVC Regular Season champs at least once before I pass. Just call me 'Frustrated AZ BU Fan'....

 

[Da Coach]

... I would exchange two miracle MVC Tourney titles for 2 or more MVC Conference Champiinships - a whole season's worth of pleasure vs a weekend quickie.

I wouldn't agree quite with this, and I am not sure most fans or coaches would. I know from talking to our coaches (and to former coaches as well), their primary goal is to win the MVC Tournament and play in the NCAA Tournament. Sure, a conference regular season title is great, but it doesn't mean as much to players, coaches, or to a lot of fans as an MVC Tournament championship. I have also heard from some UNI fans, and they would trade their MVC regular-season title from last year for a tournament win and a chance to play in the NCAA, and I suspect most fans would. Winning the MVC tournament and playing in the NCAA Tournament is considered by many as the pinnacle of a successful season.

 

[Chris]

1st Team All MVC players or 1st Team All Frosh players seem always hard to find on BU Team rosters .... .

Don't we have one of both of these right now though? Childs was 1st team this preseason and Mast could conceivably make the all freshman team.

This season was a huge disappointment obviously. If we had won those Xavier and Missouri games, who knows how the season plays out with our confidence levels.

The NCAA tournament appearances are what builds a program, not regular season titles.

 

[Da Coach]

Don't we have one of both of these right now though? Childs was 1st team this preseason and Mast could conceivably make the all freshman team.

This season was a huge disappointment obviously. If we had won those Xavier and Missouri games, who knows how the season plays out with our confidence levels.

The NCAA tournament appearances are what builds a program, not regular season titles.

Elijah Childs ranks 6th in scoring (14.2) and 2nd in rebounding (8.3 rpg), and realistically should be on the All-MVC 1st team. However, Cameron Krutwig, Gaige Prim, Tyreke Key, and Isiaih Mosley are locks for 1st team, so it leaves only 1 other slot and it might be hard for Childs to get the votes for 1st team, now that the suspension is fresh in the minds of the voters. Other possible candidates for the 5th and final slot on the 1st team are- ShanQuan Hemphill, Roman Penn, and D.J. Horne. I think Eli is one of the top 5 players in the league, but we'll have to wait and see what kind of support he gets.

And Rienk Mast is clearly one of the top freshmen in the MVC statistically. With a couple games remaining, Mast is averaging 7.5 ppg for the season, but he's averaged close to 12 ppg over the last 8 games. He ranks 5th in scoring by freshmen behind Bowen Born of UNI (11.0), Joseph Yesufu of Drake (9.0), Sheldon Edwards (7.9), and Nate Heise of UNI (7.6).
And Rienk is the #1 rebounder among freshmen in the MVC averaging 5.6 rpg. Those numbers should get him named All-Freshman, but it would help if he puts up great numbers for the last couple games if he has a chance at Freshman of the Year.

 

[AZ BU Fan]

So the verdict is in.... Screw the regular season. Why bother going to games at Carver. Save your money and just go to St Louis hoping for a Tourney miracle. Then, sit back at home and watch BU's one and done in the NCAA's with left overs and a beer. Give me a team anytime that can play at a championship level during the season. I'll take my chances with a Championship anytime in the MVC Conference Tourney and any post season after that. An 8-8, or worse, team that wins the Conference Tourney and gets a one and done NCAA Tourney game is still an 8-8, or worse, team. DON'T SETTLE BU FANS.

Best Valley Conference record in past 20 years: 11-7
# Seasons in past 20 years with > 0.500 Valley Conference Regular Season record: 5

 

[LittleBrave]

So the verdict is in.... Screw the regular season. Why bother going to games at Carver. Save your money and just go to St Louis hoping for a Tourney miracle. Then, sit back at home and watch BU's one and done in the NCAA's with left overs and a beer. Give me a team anytime that can play at a championship level during the season. I'll take my chances with a Championship anytime in the MVC Conference Tourney and any post season after that. An 8-8, or worse, team that wins the Conference Tourney and gets a one and done NCAA Tourney game is still an 8-8, or worse, team. DON'T SETTLE BU FANS.

Best Valley Conference record in past 20 years: 11-7
# Seasons in past 20 years with > 0.500 Valley Conference Regular Season record: 5

I totally feel ya, AzBUFan!
At start of this season, as a fan I was like - OK!
We’ve proven we are better than the other league teams.
Time to put it all together and win a Valley title!

I’m not sure I’d trade those b2b titles for anything, but I don’t think it’s even close to as great an accomplishment as winning the reg. season title just ONE TIME!

it’s been 25 stinking years! And maybe only 1 season since we’ve contended for the title up to the final week of the season!
That’s kind of shameful as great a program as we claim to have and basketball history as rich as we have!

 

[Tommy]

So the verdict is in.... Screw the regular season. Why bother going to games at Carver. Save your money and just go to St Louis hoping for a Tourney miracle.

I feel your pain, AZ. Dub and I have had many conversations about wanting to see an MVC regular season championship, and our hope with BW is that we become the dominant team of the the MVC for years to come, much in the same way that Creighton and WSU had in the past. This year was a real disappointment as I think many of us were expecting just one more step in improvement which would have meant about 23-25 wins and maybe even a shot at being ranked. Obviously that didn't happen and this team looks more like BW's first team instead of his last. We could make plenty of excuses for this failed season, but the fact remains that we expect them to overcome whatever obstacles are put in their way and to succeed nonetheless.

As far as 'screw the regular season', I don't think ANYONE on this forum feels that way. You can be an extremely competitive team without winning the MVC, but in the end, the only sure shot at the NCAA tournament is to win the MVC conference tourney first. I think that's all anyone is saying here. None of us want to finish in last place and then win the tournament, but I think what we've accomplished the last 2 years would be perfectly acceptable, though slightly less fulfilling than if we had won the conference straight out. I'm sure if you asked Loyola and UNI fans if they would have traded a couple regular season wins for an MVC tournament championship and an NCAA berth, most, if not all of them would say absolutely.

Now to your point, I think you're saying just be so good that we get ranked nationally and it doesn't matter if we win the tourney. We'd all love to see that happen, but we have to be honest about the way the NCAA does rankings and understand that they have made it increasingly difficult for mid-majors to be ranked (see Drake taking their first loss of the year in game 19 of the season, only to see it push them out of the rankings. How many power conference teams that are 18-1 aren't ranked?).

We all empathize with your feelings and everyone is disappointed with what we've seen happen this year.