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Sam M & Andrew W....

BUconnorD said:
And SM played behind Ruffin his freshman year......
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He also started 15 games (many because Ruffin was hurt) and played a more prominent role in the rotation.

SM freshman -- 1,034 minutes
SM soph -- 858 minutes (more to come)

AW freshman -- 458 minutes (zero games started)
AW soph -- 993 minutes (would've been more if not for the hand injury)
 
amckillip said:
Those same coaches would take DRuff over JC too.
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I may disagree here. It would depend on their need. I like SM a lot and I love the team play, grit and heart that he brings to every game and play. These are qualities that do make the team better. IMHO I believe AW is a superior basketball talent.

I also believe the starting lineup next year will be:

EM
SM
AW
TB
WE if healthy enough.
 
I am hoping CR sees the light and improves enough to get in to the starting lineup next year, as his athleticism could be huge defensively.
 
Our best backcourt next year will have McCain, Dunson, and Warren in it. Sam will be a great 4th guard off the bench, but the 3 guys mentioned above are all better at what they do than Sam is and will be starting. He'll be a great combo guard off the bench next year.
 
BradleyBrave said:
Our best backcourt next year will have McCain, Dunson, and Warren in it. Sam will be a great 4th guard off the bench, but the 3 guys mentioned above are all better at what they do than Sam is and will be starting. He'll be a great combo guard off the bench next year.
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If DD works on his funky outside shot and can hit it consistantly I agree but right now SM is a bigger offensive threat then DD and EM. EM also needs to work on his outside shot and needs to be able to step up and take it from the top of the key when he is left open. Until then because we suffer on scoring consistantly SM will start this year and next year over both of them.
 
SFP said:
If DD works on his funky outside shot and can hit it consistantly I agree but right now SM is a bigger offensive threat then DD and EM. EM also needs to work on his outside shot and needs to be able to step up and take it from the top of the key when he is left open. Until then because we suffer on scoring consistantly SM will start this year and next year over both of them.
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It's not all about offense. Dodie is our best defender at guard. He's big, he's strong, and can guard other team's bigger scoring guards. Sam cannot. EM is a better and more natural true point guard than Sam. Andrew Warren is an all-conference shooting guard who was among the league leaders in scoring heading into this year. No one is getting time over AW, you can book that. Sam does a lot of things well, but nothing great. That's why he's the perfect guy off the bench. He will spell EM at the point from time to time, and can spell Dodie when we need some instant offense. On a very good team, Sam comes off the bench and gives you whatever you need for 20-25 minutes and is an invaluable cog. On an average team he's starting, logging 30+ minutes a game, and taking shots in crunch time. Which do you prefer?
 
BB I'm with you but historically speaking SM will do everything he can do over the summer to improve his deficiencies and JL will reward him for it. We will need another scorer to take the pressure from AW. I agree that AW is a sure starter! That is not even up for discussion IMO. In a perfect world CR would step up in the off season and start at the 3 and push AW to the 2 but we know that will not happen.
 
ER3 said:
I don't understand the implication that the only reason SM plays as much as he does is because he is "JL's boy"...implying that if he weren't white and 5'11", he'd be hanging out at the end of the bench with AT and the walk-ons or something to that effect. You act as though Maniscalco is Chris Mroz or something.
Give the guy some credit...I think he's more than earned the playing time he has gotten and will continue to get...He was a god player in high school and succeeded as the only option against much better players than he faces in the Valley, and he's made countless big shots and great plays for us through a year and 2/3 at BU so far...that's why he is getting PT, not because of some physical similarity to JL.
I think some of you have bought way too far into the whole 'athleticism or bust' approach. Athletes are great, but you need to have basketball palyers, too...and pure and simple, SM is a quality basketball player...
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I say he is JL's boy because he is a player JL sees himself in. A leader, hardworker and an over achiever.

I say that in a very positive way, he has earned his minutes. I use the phrase because if you look at the two they are both very similar in who they are/were as basketball players.

Thank you for pointing it out. It probably does come off as saying he only plays because he is white. No he plays because he is very good, but his game, attitude and the way he carries himself is very similar to Les. They both are overachievers and leaders.
 
SFP said:
I may disagree here. It would depend on their need. I like SM a lot and I love the team play, grit and heart that he brings to every game and play. These are qualities that do make the team better. IMHO I believe AW is a superior basketball talent.

I also believe the starting lineup next year will be:

EM
SM
AW
TB
WE if healthy enough.
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I would like to see a little more size. I would like to see Sam M. come off the bench. I think he would be a great sparkplug in that role. Starting 2 guys under 6' tall -- not a championship situation. Other teams with taller guards will be shooting over our heads all night just like this year. Play one of them at a time. I don't think some people have been watching what has happened time and again this year. Sam M. is a decent "heady" player with decent (yet inconsistent) shot, a lot of heart and hustle, but he gets beat off the dribble unless we play a team that does not have good athletes (like last night) and he gets shot over easily by bigger guards. Some of you guys are in denial about this and should seek help...
corkysm60.gif
 
georgethedog said:
I would like to see a little more size. I would like to see Sam M. come off the bench. I think he would be a great sparkplug in that role. Starting 2 guys under 6' tall -- not a championship situation. Other teams with taller guards will be shooting over our heads all night just like this year. Play one of them at a time. I don't think some people have been watching what has happened time and again this year. Sam M. is a decent "heady" player with decent (yet inconsistent) shot, a lot of heart and hustle, but he gets beat off the dribble unless we play a team that does not have good athletes (like last night) and he gets shot over easily by bigger guards.
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Exactly GTD. Teams shoot a high percentage from 3 against us even when it appears we're playing good defense because we're too short to truly defend the 3 very well. Very well said.
 
SFP said:
I may disagree here. It would depend on their need. I like SM a lot and I love the team play, grit and heart that he brings to every game and play. These are qualities that do make the team better. IMHO I believe AW is a superior basketball talent.

I also believe the starting lineup next year will be:

EM
SM
AW
TB
WE if healthy enough.
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I really like that backcourt
as for the bigs, its all up in the air at this point
will WE be healthy enough for the 5
How will CR be doing next year
How is Prosser going to fit in the format

all things that are going to be settled in the offseason methinks,
i do like that backcourt...this gives DN some good quality time as a secondary guard.
 
georgethedog said:
I would like to see a little more size. I would like to see Sam M. come off the bench. I think he would be a great sparkplug in that role. Starting 2 guys under 6' tall -- not a championship situation. Other teams with taller guards will be shooting over our heads all night just like this year. Play one of them at a time. I don't think some people have been watching what has happened time and again this year. Sam M. is a decent "heady" player with decent (yet inconsistent) shot, a lot of heart and hustle, but he gets beat off the dribble unless we play a team that does not have good athletes (like last night) and he gets shot over easily by bigger guards. Some of you guys are in denial about this and should seek help...
corkysm60.gif
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OK, I am an denial, I guess.

I contend that our best lineup this year is when SM, DD, CR, TW, and DC are on the floor.
Next year, I think our best lineup will be when SM, DD, AW, TB, and WE will be on the floor...until proven otherwise.


But, tell me...even if Eddren and Sam are on the floor at the same time....where exactly are all of these big guards on the elite Valley teams that we simply cannot match up with if SM is on the floor??

UNI and Creighton are going to finish 1-2 in the league...and you contend that you simply can't be in a "championship situation" with small guards...so clearly UNI and Creighton must be playing a bunch of 6'5" guys at the guard spots...right?

Well, let's see...UNI plays Farokmanesh, Moran, and Ahelegbe more than anyone else on their roster...How big are they? 6'0", 6'1", and 6'2"...three pretty small guards on the floor all the time. How do they win any games with that puny backcourt?

Creighton is the hottest team in the league, the best team on paper...and they play 5 different guards...and usually some combination of three of them are on the floor all the time...And their guards are 6'0" (Witter), 6'1" (Woodfox), 6'1" (Dotzler), 6'0" (Young), and 6'3" (Stinnett)...I certainly don't think that qualifies as a group of "big guards" as they will almost always have 2 guards on the floor that are 6'1" or under.

There are the two teams that are going to be fighting it out for the Valley title this year...neither of them have these supposedly mandatory "big guards". So, what gives?

Having SM, DD, and AW on the floor makes our backcourt tower over both of these teams regular backcourts...having EM, SM, and AW on the floor makes us as big or bigger than the lineups these Valley teams that find themselves in a "Championship situation" this year.

Seems like those that are clamoring for more size in our back court might be barking up the wrong tree.;-)
 
BradleyBrave said:
Exactly GTD. Teams shoot a high percentage from 3 against us even when it appears we're playing good defense because we're too short to truly defend the 3 very well. Very well said.
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So UNI shot well from 3 against us because their "bigger guards" shot over us all game long? Really? Farokmanesh and Moran were the only ones that hurt us from 3...and they are 6'0" and 6'1", respectively...Is that big? I agree that we don't defend the three well, but I don't agree that it is the size that is our problem.

A 6'6" guard that gets overaggressive and leaves his man to help in a situation where he shouldn't still isn't going to get back to affect the wide open three from his man that he left...it doesn't matter how big he is...
 
ER3 said:
OK, I am an denial, I guess.

I contend that our best lineup this year is when SM, DD, CR, TW, and DC are on the floor.
Next year, I think our best lineup will be when SM, DD, AW, TB, and WE will be on the floor...until proven otherwise.


But, tell me...even if Eddren and Sam are on the floor at the same time....where exactly are all of these big guards on the elite Valley teams that we simply cannot match up with if SM is on the floor??

UNI and Creighton are going to finish 1-2 in the league...and you contend that you simply can't be in a "championship situation" with small guards...so clearly UNI and Creighton must be playing a bunch of 6'5" guys at the guard spots...right?

Well, let's see...UNI plays Farokmanesh, Moran, and Ahelegbe more than anyone else on their roster...How big are they? 6'0", 6'1", and 6'2"...three pretty small guards on the floor all the time. How do they win any games with that puny backcourt?

Creighton is the hottest team in the league, the best team on paper...and they play 5 different guards...and usually some combination of three of them are on the floor all the time...And their guards are 6'0" (Witter), 6'1" (Woodfox), 6'1" (Dotzler), 6'0" (Young), and 6'3" (Stinnett)...I certainly don't think that qualifies as a group of "big guards" as they will almost always have 2 guards on the floor that are 6'1" or under.

There are the two teams that are going to be fighting it out for the Valley title this year...neither of them have these supposedly mandatory "big guards". So, what gives?

Having SM, DD, and AW on the floor makes our backcourt tower over both of these teams regular backcourts...having EM, SM, and AW on the floor makes us as big or bigger than the lineups these Valley teams that find themselves in a "Championship situation" this year.

Seems like those that are clamoring for more size in our back court might be barking up the wrong tree.;-)
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We're giving up several inches to guards that are 6'0" and 6'1". I don't care what our guys are listed at, they're 5'10" at the most. You need size, including size at the guard position to be able to win in the league and outside of it.

If you have a truly strong player inside and a strong interior game, then you can get away with smaller guards (BU in 2006, SIU's great teams). However, if you're going to play 4 guys on the perimeter and completely foresake a post game, you had better have size at the guard positions to offset that on both ends. We're playing with no posts and midget guards. The results speak for themselves - mediocre at best.
 
ER3 said:
So UNI shot well from 3 against us because their "bigger guards" shot over us all game long? Really? Farokmanesh and Moran were the only ones that hurt us from 3...and they are 6'0" and 6'1", respectively...Is that big? I agree that we don't defend the three well, but I don't agree that it is the size that is our problem.

A 6'6" guard that gets overaggressive and leaves his man to help in a situation where he shouldn't still isn't going to get back to affect the wide open three from his man that he left...it doesn't matter how big he is...
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6'6" guards are hard to come by. I'll take 3 or 4 guys that range from 6'1" to 6'5" at my guard spots. If they're taught the proper way to defend, teams won't shoot a high percentage from 3 (but the teaching thing is a different discussion altogether).
 
ER3 said:
So, let me get this straight. Maniscalco and McCain are listed at 6'0" and 5'11"...but you don't care what they are listed at because you know they are several inches shorter.
But yet, when Cavel Witter, Booker Woodfox, Johnny Moran, Ali Farokhmanesh, Josh Young, et al. are listed at 6'0" and 6'1" you take that as the absolute truth and declare that we are giving up "several inches" to these guys? How does that work? BU is the only team shifty enough to exaggerate their listed measurements? Doubtful.
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No, I think everyone exaggerates, some exaggerate more than others. I don't know. All I know is midget backcourts don't win anything, and we started a lineup with 3 sub-6 foot guards for several games this year. One of our sub-6 footers is a step slow. None of them can shoot worth a lick. If we're not going to shoot the ball well, we might as well play big and be able to lock people off and contest shots.

If we want to win this league and win games in the NCAA Tournament (which should be the goal of this program), then we either need to get some legitimate post players who can offset playing with smaller guards like they did in 2006, or we need to get bigger guards who fit into the 4 perimeter player/no post Villanova-like system we insist on playing. Nova has big guards, but even they haven't won a d@mn thing playing this way. They'd win even less playing with midget guards that can't shoot. That's what we seem to be doing now.

However...back to the basis of this whole thread...Andrew Warren is twice the player Sammy is. If Sam were out for this whole season and AW was healthy, I think we'd have 17 or 18 wins right now, maybe more. With AW out we're at 15. I like Sammy a lot, but I think the comparison is really, really silly.
 
BradleyBrave said:
However...back to the basis of this whole thread...Andrew Warren is twice the player Sammy is. If Sam were out for this whole season and AW was healthy, I think we'd have 17 or 18 wins right now, maybe more. With AW out we're at 15. I like Sammy a lot, but I think the comparison is really, really silly.
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It's unfortunate, but I agree with this part extremely. The valley title was a lock this year I think for us had we had AW and WE. It would've been an entire starting line up plus some subs that are all athletic and can play basketball and shoot....would've been nice to see. I think we could've had 20 by now.
 
BB, nice post. I guess you and I are the only ones that have seen our guards shot over all year. Rose colored glasses for the other guys I guess. Like you said, if you are that short, you better be able to shoot (like UNI and Creighton's guards), but our little guys cannot light it up like UNI & Creighton's. Question: Have any of you guys ever watched when McCain, Sam M. or Norris are standing next to our Coach? They are all shorter than Les... Wasn't he the best player in the country under 6' as a senior? He must have grown a few inches because he looks like he towers over McCain and Norris, and is about an inch or so taller than Sam M. Maybe Coach is wearing elevator shoes?

Finally, and I am done discussing the obvious, I don't care about the arguments presented about UNI and Creighton's guards height because it is a moot point. Why? That is because they have been shooting over us (along with most other teams), so either they are taller or are much better athletes and are jumping over our heads? Take your choice fellas, but nobody can deny with a straight face that we haven't been shot over almost the entire season. I just don't want to watch that again all next year.
 
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