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Title IX - has it worked?

tornado

tornado

New member
I know there will be people arguing both sides...

but the two main purposes of Title IX were...
-to increase particpation in sports by girls & women
-to increase the number of women who administrate or coach women's sports

(for those who don't know - Title IX is a massive and intrusive Federal program to police the area of women in sports
and uses the entitlements and federal money as a tool to enforce a complex set of rules that are designed to force any recipient
of federal dollars to involve more women whether or not they want to, or whether the women are qualilfied, or
even if they are unavailable - they still have to involve women.)

Purpose #1 has been fulfilled - nobody denies that more women play every sport now - but is it because of Title IX. Many are not sure, since even tiny and private programs like Little League, park district youth soccer, and grade school sports all have MORE girls and Title IX doesn't apply to them and has no impact at that level -- so it is quite possible that most if not all the increase in women's participation would have happened anyway...
But -as a downside to Title IX - many youth programs have been scaled back and some simply terminated - and the men's programs go with them, since the schools cannot afford the mandates that go with Title IX...so this HURTS the very goal that Title IX purports to help.
...Just look at all the colleges that are cutting programs...like UNI...
http://www.athleticscholarships.net/title-ix-college-athletics.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/05/AR2009080503089.html


Purpose #2 - this one is an absolute FAILURE...
A new study shows it has actually HURT the hiring of women...

"... the percentage of women in college coaching has actually
decreased since Title IX became law.
According to the article, when Title IX was passed in 1972, women coached
more than 90 percent of women’s teams. By 1978 that number had dropped
to just over 58 percent and it now stands at just under 43 percent. In the
last 12 years NCAA programs have added over 1700 women’s coaching
positions and men have filled over two thirds of those positions."

"Men, in increasing numbers, coach women’s teams but the number of women
who coach men’s teams has stayed at a pathetic three percent. Why? Men
who coach men’s teams rarely think of hiring women as assistant coaches
and women rarely think of applying to coach men’s teams. Indeed, women
generally assume, often rightly so, that jobs coaching men’s teams are off
limits to them and don’t even apply when a job is advertised. Right away,
women have lost half the coaching jobs in college sports. The article gives
the following example of how women further limit their job opportunities."

There are also many other complex factors...
http://www.afterellen.com/content/2012/04/homophobia-and-sexism-factor-ncca-coaches-getting-hired
 
I believe Title IX has been a huge success for women if you look outside of the sports world. Women are now better prepared at working together as a team then the older generation of women who simply never played a team sport. You do not see the back stabbing as much from the younger women workforce. I've seen women of my generation and older sabotage each other all to often. I have to believe Title IX has been a big part of this.
 
it worked for the people who didn't deserve jobs or admission but got it over others who were MORE deserving because of arbitrary factors
 
It's worked for the people who had the same credentials as other people but never got a chance because of factors beyond their control. More specifically to Title IX, women who are men's equals are getting the chances they couldn't in the past.

Now, whether it's gone too far is a good debate, IMO. If Affirmative Action results in minorities getting more and better chances than the common white male if the two have equal credentials, that's a valid point, but you can't say that without acknowledging the opposite side - without it, the common white male would get more chances than any type of minority with equal credentials.
 
TheAsianSensation said:
...More specifically to Title IX, women who are men's equals are getting the chances they couldn't in the past....
Click to expand...

but wait -- I have a couple facts to present that might just throw some doubt on that.......

Title IX pretty much only applies to sports - and more specifically sports in schools & colleges - YET women are getting MORE opportunity just about everywhere else...sports and NON-sports...

First - in many, many areas that have nothing to do with Title IX - like Little League, youth sports programs, private schools, etc....women similarly have WAY more teams, roster spots, and coaching positions - so if this phenomenon of WAY morw women is happening just about everywhere - and NOT just where it would have been required for Title IX - then..
Isn't it just possible the increased number of positions for women would have happened anyway - it was already headed in that direction, and happened even where Title IX had nothing to do with it.
I believe it would and that Title IX cannot be credited for the very thing you claim it helped do.

Then - We have women running for Vice President and even President, we have way more women starting businesses, and becoming CEO's, and the number of women in med schools has gone from only 10% 40 years ago to more than 50% now....plus more women in every walk of life - construction jobs, even NBA referees!!!!...etc, etc..

SO could we NOT conclude that it was just natural and it was going to happen anyway in all walks of life AND in sports as well and that just maybe TITLE IX had absolutely nothing to do with it or may have been irrelevant?

Even in nations that DO not have such a thing as Title IX - it's happening as well -- so if Title IX is the responsible factor then we wouldn't have women Prime Ministers, women leaders of nations, women TV anchors, women sports reporters (like Erin Andrews), etc...

Thus I say the private market and the private world works quite well, thank you, and Title IX is not responsible...


Lastly - I find it oddly hypocritical that the VERY PEOPLE who most loudly champion "FAIRNESS" and "EQUALITY"
and who want to give people the fair rewards for their hard work - are ever so anxious and willing to impose rules that are UNFAIR and do NOT treat people equally, and which penalize people purely because they are NOT of a proscribed race or sex, when it suits their agenda -- but then - I think we all agree this is NOT about fairness or equality - it is simply about power and politics.

Personally I don't give a hoot as nobody in my family has ever gained advantage nor had to deal with unfairness due to this silly "Title"...I only ask for what comes from honest, hard work - and I have never asked someone to legistlate some advantage or some money my way....
I actually find Title IX to be a bit of an amusement - because the very people behind it often whine when it doesn't give them what they want....
Example - how many lawyers are getting rich with lawsuits that have to be paid out of taxpayer coffers when they don't like what's happening -- just ask Ken Kavanagh... LINK
http://savingsports.blogspot.com/2010/06/remembering-great-programs-eliminated.html
 
Well, it's true that there's been plenty of advancement for women in areas not directly affected by Title IX. However, I do think there's an effect, admittedly tough to quantify, but an effect Title IX has on other areas. Knowing that there is a law in place for equality in educational areas, other professions and organizations are catchup up to that. There's more pressure to offer more opportunities to girls and women in youth sports programs and in the workforce because the educational system offers the same because of law. Again, admittedly tough to quantify, but it's a lot easier to offer more opportunities to women because of the existence of Title IX in one area.

Lastly - I find it oddly hypocritical that the VERY PEOPLE who most loudly champion "FAIRNESS" and "EQUALITY"
and who want to give people the fair rewards for their hard work - are ever so anxious and willing to impose rules that are UNFAIR and do NOT treat people equally, and which penalize people purely because they are NOT of a proscribed race or sex, when it suits their agenda -- but then - I think we all agree this is NOT about fairness or equality - it is simply about power and politics.
Click to expand...

This is a dicey subject, because I truly believe the people who do champion fairness aren't trying to get advantages. The true goal of these people really are equality. The problem is that the people and organizations that are being pressured by this movement are the ones being unfair. They see the protests, the movements, etc, and feel the political pressure to be overly fair to the point of being unfair against the "majority". The people fighting for equal rights want equal rights. A few exceptions sure to exist after all, but painting the people who fight for equality as being biased themselves is questionable at best to me.
 
I guess we have people saying Title IX helps boost girls in biddy ball and youth soccer -- where will the misinformation end...?

There weren't even boys playing soccer when I was a kid - there were no youth soccer programs for boys or girls - yet now there are innumerable -- every little city has one or more...

What caused it?? Is that due to Title IX, too?? Of course not
- it simply due to more parents wanting more things and more opportunities for their kids - boys and girls - and if the parents get involved and get things done - we don't need a Title IX...
Kids just need parents who care and do what is needed - if the money spent on Title IX were spent to help families stay together and help parents get invoved in their kids' lives then we'd be way better off...

But there simply aren't parents involved in some communities so numerous sports opportunities are non-existent no matter how many rules, regulations, or money is thrown at them - and that explains why Manual won't ever have enough kids to field a competitive soccer team or a few other sports..


BTW -- interesting story on paying college athletes...
it's probably Title IX that is the biggest hurdle....
most schools know if they pay their top male athletes, then they'll have to give same compensation to all the women's athletes whose sports already are big money-losers, and in time probably all the way down to paying the cheerleaders!
http://www.businessinsider.com/lets...uring-that-they-graduate-2012-4#ixzz1r2rUWS00
 
I think the argument about Title IX should be more abstract than you're making it. Without Title IX, there's no demand, for example, for female soccer players. Less opportunities for female soccer players to develop, no demand in high school for it, interest dies out, then youth programs die out because there's no chance to use the skills developed in them in further endeavors.

Now with Title IX, schools begin offering women's soccer. Demand for players goes up, more focus is put on high school players. The more the focus goes on high school players, the more interest there is to devleop these players, youth programs pop up to do this, presto.

While yes, we have seen parents get better at encouraging these activities, you eventually need to see return on investments to make an activity in general worthwhile. Title IX is definitely not solely responsible, maybe not even the #1 reason for it, but it is a contributing factor because it establishes women's soccer as an activity that a person can spend years doing. Again, just using women's soccer as the example here.


BTW -- interesting story on paying college athletes...
it's probably Title IX that is the biggest hurdle....
most schools know if they pay their top male athletes, then they'll have to give same compensation to all the women's athletes whose sports already are big money-losers, and in time probably all the way down to paying the cheerleaders!
http://www.businessinsider.com/lets-...#ixzz1r2rUWS00
Click to expand...

What about all the male sports that lose money too?
 
I am not sure what you mean...
millions of kids take piano and violin lessons and yet only a handful ever make a living at it - and we sure don't have a government entitlement program to assure those girls doing it will have the chance to cash in when they get to college...
So -- how does that differ in sports - maybe we need a TITLE IX-A to force all colleges who get federal funds to sponsor all-girl bands and given them scholarships???

I simply don't see why the government must concern itself with some girl's possible opportunity to make a living at soccer 15-20 years into the future.

Men maybe have MORE chance to play in college or to make such a living as pros BECAUSE people will and DO pay more to see men's soccer than they do for women's soccer...
Throughout all of 10,000 years we've let the market decide what people will pay for then here in the last half to 3/4 century now we legislate tax dollars to pay for it...thus forcing people to pay for it even if they find it unappealing and undesirable.

Same goes for almost every other sport - if the demand is there - then the opportunities will exist...if the demand is NOT there, then I guess you need a massive government program to force the unpopular issue down everyone's throat and manufacture sports for those girls to play in college - but they still won't have the pro opportunities because then Title IX fails them as it simply cannot force people to go buy tickets to something they find boring and non-entertaining.

I think the links I have given prove that Title IX is a massive waste of money even if a few people are benefiting - it is at the cost of mega bucks and lost opportunities for other people...
but - as I said - as long as it is the other people of your choosing then it's OK -- thus it is obvious it's all about power and politics...
 
T I see your point of view and especially when you cite the free market. I'd have to believe Title IX did some good but it's time for the fed to stand aside and let the market decide. I'm a free market advocate but occasionally, a bit of government interference, can play a role in having society recognize failings.
 
Title IX is 40 years old...but here's just a short snippet of something that happened about the same time...

there were a group of people who wanted to organize, develop, and play pro basketball but who were completely boxed out of the market by greedy and exclusive NBA owners...

So guess what they did - they didn't petition the government to come up with some sort of "Title" to force others to let them in and give them advantages....

Almost exactly 45 years ago a group of private entrepreneurs got together and decided to form a whole new basketball league and compete head to head with the powerful - almost monopolistic existing league the NBA..
They formed the new ABA (American Basketball Association)
- and it was, in most regards, a significant success....
it sorta rocked the basketball world....
it produced MAJOR superstars like Doctor J, Moses Malone, Connie Hawkins, Rick Barry, Spencer Haywood, Artis Gilmore, and more...
..and they introduced things like the 3-point shot, dunk contests, rapid uptempo play, and guess what...

They didn't need help from the government to get it done.
They didn't need special breaks at the expense of others....they didn't need special favors done for them that the other guys didn't get.
In fact - just about every team owner who did ask for some government help was rejected so they did it all on their own!

This is the heart of being an American - this is what success and inventiveness is all about.
This is the stuff that makes ME proud to be an American and more than happy to pay my taxes to support such a country.

BUT the overbearing, unfair, expensive, wasteful meddling that is exemplified by Title IX and many other government endeavors makes me ashamed that this nation picks and chooses who can and who cannot succeed.
The government has created a whole culture of entitlement - of people who now don't actually believe they can get what they want or succeed - but who are ever so ready to put a hand out and expect the government to do it for them or give it to them.

Once they have that mindset - they seem to always have that welfare mentality and pass it on to their next generation.......so it goes and it's now bankrupting this nation with 15 trillion dollars in debt...

So happy 45th birthday to the successful and inspiring ABA which still lives.... in that some NBA teams are still existing from the merger, and also happy 40th birthday to the controversial and unfair Title IX.
 
Here's kind of a Title IX/fairness/discrimination issue but see how the concept of fairness chooses not to protect a young male athlete...

It's happened many times that girls play on boys sports teams just about any time they choose to and nobody objects- mainly because they get sued if they do...but honestly, I think most of America is fair and is ok with the girls playing on boys' teams.
...so we see girls on boys' hockey teams, Little League teams, JFL football teams, even occasionally on boys' high school and college sports teams...

but here we have a young boy who came to the US from Ireland where he loved field hockey - but the only teams he could find to play on are all-girls teams, and they have banned the kid from playing.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highs...eld-hockey-player-banned-being-160713816.html

BUT - as expected there's more to the story -- they really aren't banning him only because he's male but because he's a male who has proven he is better than their girls.
Initially they allowed the boy to play, and had he been average or bad, probably nobody would have complained much.

BUT -- after two seasons - he now proves he's the best player in the league so the officials and the other parents have changed their previous tolerance and now want him banned.

What an absolutely petty bunch who see only themselves and their own less talented kids.
 
My nutshell opinion is that it's probably been good for girls, but has led to the elimination of men's sports sports at many schools (including wrestling at my al ma mater.)
 
I agree Old Coach. There is no question is has lead to elimination of innumerable men's sports at hundreds or thousands of colleges. And there are many stories about colleges starting up low-cost women's sports like badminton, fencing, rifling, and field hockey just to artificially create enough new scholarship opportunities for women so they don't have to cut important revenue-producing men's sports like football, which uses a lot of men's scholarships.

The irony is that some of the scholarships given away for such new sports go to women who have never even played the sport before (badminton is not a common high school sport, thus very few "athletes" to recruit). It ends up being a numbers game the colleges are forced to play just to comply with the federal gestapo-like Title IX enforcers.
 
tornado said:
Women's rugby at EIU is a classic example - they have both scholarship and walk-on spots,
and they tell you that all you need is a certain body size/shape - don't even need to know how to play the game or even know a thing about it..
http://www.eiupanthers.com/index.aspx?path=wrugby&tab=1
http://www.eiupanthers.com/news/2008/1/8/08rgby_winter-tryout_0108.aspx
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=217801&postcount=2
Click to expand...

There aren't very many NCAA programs (most are clubs), but EIU has had pretty good teams (49-3 since 2007). You're right about the players. They simply recruit female athletes.
 
some interesting comments in a blog written by someone who claims he once coached at Bradley University...

"Title IX -- 40 years and it now really sucks to be a boy
..by Mark Rauterkus

Title IX has its 40th birthday -- and Title IX is no friend of mine.

Let's see, I coached swimming with the men's team at Ohio University. Now my sons won't dare go to Ohio University because the men's swim team was cut some years ago. When I was there, there was swimming and diving for both men and women.

Then I coached at Baylor University. Baylor had a team then -- but it stopped. Now Baylor has no swimming for either men or women. However, Baylor is now building a new football stadium.

Then I coached at Bradley University. They had a men's swim team -- now gone. Bradley even started a womens team and now it has neither.

There is a long list of lost opportunities for men in college sports thanks to Title IX and pin headed administrators. Here is the message: Winning happens with addition. Never does one win with subtraction.

Here is a list of swim teams cut in recent times:"
(then he lists dozens and dozens....

http://rauterkus.blogspot.com/2012/06/title-ix-40-years-and-it-now-really.html
 
Of course Title IX has been wildly successful. To think we would be where we are today in terms of access and opportunity organically without the foundation to ensure that equality is ridiculous. Often, minds have to be opened with force when necessary to provide equal opportunity.

So now title ix has been accused, and probably accurately so, of causing schools to provide opportunity at the expense of some men's programs. So what. Is women's rugby any worse than men's swimming or wrestling? All cost the university money and are net losers in terms of dollars, so why not have more opportunities for women to compete instead of always men?

If you are in any non revenue sport, you are being provided at the expense of the money made by revenue sports...ie men's basketball and football. Very few other teams in the country make money at most schools. So, should all of those sports be cut? If you think the free market should determine everything, then your answer must be yes.
 
bradleyfan20 said:
Of course Title IX has been wildly successful. ...
Click to expand...

I disagree - and I think the sentiment of that very blogger I just linked to proves my point........
-just like EVERY government program - it is deemed "successful" mostly by those who have gained the benefits, and those who have suffered unfair disadvantages as a result of the programs definitely DO NOT deem the programs successful but the press rarely carries their point of view..

The government's massive taxpayer giveaway to help poverty has done little to achieve the desired intent - to eradicate poverty - and some believe the efforts simply reward the very behavior that locks people into poverty...

..same with affirmative action, food stamps, "free universal healthcare", and almost every other government imposed or sponsored program & giveaway.
I simply do NOT see where it has been successful except to a few in the short term - and I believe that anywhere you identify "success" that it likely would have and could have happened on its own without Title IX.


It all boils down to that old saying - that there are two types of people who react differently when someone knocks on your door saying ...
"I am from the government and I am here to help"
...One type of person would say "sure, then why should I do anything on my own - I'll just let you do it for me and pay the costs"...
...The other type would say "no, thanks, get out of my way as I can do it on my own and I do not need you"
..unfortunately we have far too many of the former type and far too few of the latter type whose hard work generates the government's resources to pay for the former's handouts
 
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