ISU has played just as many BCS schools to date as UNI.
ISU and UNI both played Louisville. UNI on a Neutral court and ISU @ Louisville.
ISU played Northwestern (7-3 rpi 69) on a Neutral Court.
UNI played Stanford (6-3 rpi 92) on a Neutral Court.
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Valley RPI
- Thread starter Da Coach
- Start date
ISU has played just as many BCS schools to date as UNI.
ISU and UNI both played Louisville. UNI on a Neutral court and ISU @ Louisville.
ISU played Northwestern (7-3 rpi 69) on a Neutral Court.
UNI played Stanford (6-3 rpi 92) on a Neutral Court.
TheAsianSensation
New member
ISU did a better job of cupcake consumption this year.
Remember, UNI has an Iowa/UNLV/St Mary's stretch coming up. Their SoS will be fine.
Remember, UNI has an Iowa/UNLV/St Mary's stretch coming up. Their SoS will be fine.
braveatheart
New member
So ISU has an new coach that maybe schedules a little harder. Good for them, they needed it. With our rebuild, we needed to schedule a little softer this year. Good for us.
When it is all said and done though they are still ISU, too bad for them.
When it is all said and done though they are still ISU, too bad for them.
Definitely SOS, as the RPI has been proven a roll of the dice over the past decade (just ask Barry Hinson).
Here's a hypothetical situation. Team A plays 20 sub 300 RPI teams, 5 top 50 RPI teams, and 5 teams in the middle. They go 3-2 against the RPI top 50 and 25-5 overall for an RPI of 70 due to their soft schedule.
Team B plays 2 top 50 RPI teams, 20 teams below 300 and 8 teams from 100 to 300. They go 0-2 against the RPI top 50 teams, and win all the others, and finish with an RPI of 40 due to their great winning percentage.
Now which team is more deserving of a spot in the NCAA Tournament? I would definitely say for Team A because they showed they can beat the better teams more consistently than Team B, something that their RPI numbers would not have been able to show us unless the entire body of work is examined further.
In this example, I would say both are deserving of the tournament (Team B due to their consistent winning like say, Murray State last year). But I am just using this example to show how misleading the RPI's seem, especially now considering UNI will have more opportunities for top 50 wins than ISU will have from here on out. I think the bottom feeders influence the RPI to a point where we lose sight of what the teams have done against other NCAA Tournament contenders.
Well, both played the same number of BCS schools for now, but UNI has more opportunities coming up (and I'm including high-majors like UNLV in this example as well). That said, all things equal, I think the RPI is skewing too much towards the bottom feeders that both teams have played, and seems to be punishing UNI much more than it should be. However, with UNLV, Iowa, St. Mary's and Wichita St. coming up for UNI, look for their RPI to shoot up quite a bit by the end of the month. And I think by the end of the year, UNI will have the higher non-conference RPI when all is said and done, unless they lose these two games coming up. Then that's a different story.
Exactly. ISU does not have anymore opportunities for quality non-conference wins, but can greatly enhance their tournament resume with a split over Creighton and Wichita St. Thankfully the Valley remains somewhat top heavy this year.
And SOS isn't? Northwestern was left out last year from the Big Dance and their SOS was 22. A matter of fact, every year teams with SOS's in the 20 and 30's are left out.
Pretty interesting example.
Here's another one:
Team A: 20-14 RPI 53 SOS 30 4-6 vs. top 50
Team B: 25-8 RPI 48 SOS 142 1-2 vs top 50
Some would say Team A is more worthy. Others would say Team B.
Team A was Marshall. Team B was Iona. Iona got an at-large bid last year, while Marshall was in the NIT
And if you peel back the onion a little further, Marshall destroyed Iona by 19 when they played.
So Dayton stinks?
TheAsianSensation
New member
You'd rather have the good RPI. Because it usually takes a good record to get that RPI, and it's that record that matters more.
I mean, you can't compare the importance of RPI and SoS. One doesn't appear on the nitty-gritty report. One incorporates the other within. Kinda silly.
I mean, you can't compare the importance of RPI and SoS. One doesn't appear on the nitty-gritty report. One incorporates the other within. Kinda silly.
I agree with you about RPI, especially the way you worded how one is incorporated within the other.
However SoS, does appear on the nitty-gritty report.
TheAsianSensation
New member
SoS does appear. RPI doesn't.
Which is just wonderful NCAA logic for you. Your own RPI is irrelevant to your worth as a team but the RPI of all your opponents are critical. :lol:
tornado
New member
of course - because you have to win those games....
if you have the top SOS in the nation but go 0-27 you probably won't get a bid...
Your example of Northwestern last year - they played twelve Top 50 teams and went 1-11 against them...pretty much proving they do not belong in that category.
RPI appears. A matter of fact it's the first thing listed.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/pdfs/2012/2012+01-29+mbb+nitty+gritty
http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2012/0...urnament-selection-criteria/PARAMS/post/31820
I understand that.
I brought up Northwestern and their SOS of 22 in comparison of Bravesfan bringing up Mo State and their RPI and failure to get a bid under Barry.
It's obvious that neither one is worthy of standing alone and proving a team's ability to get an at-large. IMO, a team's RPI shows much more of their standing in the college basketball world, than SoS though.
Northwestern was rightfully left out of the tournament last year because of their something like 1-9 record against the RPI Top 50. They can have the best SOS in the country, but they have to beat some of those teams.
And regarding your example, that was a head scratcher. If the top 50 record did not get Marshall in, then the SOS combined with the top 50 record should have. My guess is Iona won their conference regular season and Marshall did not. That is usually a big factor for some of these fringe mid-major teams as well.
Okay, I forgot ISU played Dayton. So what? I still think UNI has the better over non-conference SOS with the teams they played (unless some of them underachieve which we won't know for awhile), and three scrubs they played are at least early on, skewing their RPI numbers in the wrong direction. I think things will have evened out quite a bit by the end of the year though.
That's not a clear cut example either. The year they were left out with that RPI (in 2006), they beat a very solid Wisconsin team early in the season. If the raw numbers weren't good enough to get Missouri State into the tournament, that signature win should have gotten them a bid.
Bravesfan, I have no problem with you having your opinions and thoughts on things. More power to you, if you think SoS is more imporant than RPI.
It's hard to debate with you or anyone though, when you make claims as fact, when they aren't true at all.
You couldn't believe that UNI's SoS was so bad, compared to ISU's to date. You based this on the fact that UNI had played all those BCS schools.
Truth of the matter is: both have played the same amount of BCS schools to date.
You also made the proclamation that ISU doesn't have anymore opportunities for quality non-conference wins.
Turth of the matter is: ISU plays @ Dayton in less than a week. Dayton over the years has been a pretty decent program. They are off to a pretty good start @ 7-2 this season.
And I agree Mo State should have got in that year and UNI probably will end up with a better SoS than ISU this year.
But that certainly shouldn't excuse you from being called out to be factual in your postings. Unless you prefer to just be wrong about things that are easily proven like above. :razz:
It's hard to debate with you or anyone though, when you make claims as fact, when they aren't true at all.
You couldn't believe that UNI's SoS was so bad, compared to ISU's to date. You based this on the fact that UNI had played all those BCS schools.
Truth of the matter is: both have played the same amount of BCS schools to date.
You also made the proclamation that ISU doesn't have anymore opportunities for quality non-conference wins.
Turth of the matter is: ISU plays @ Dayton in less than a week. Dayton over the years has been a pretty decent program. They are off to a pretty good start @ 7-2 this season.
And I agree Mo State should have got in that year and UNI probably will end up with a better SoS than ISU this year.
But that certainly shouldn't excuse you from being called out to be factual in your postings. Unless you prefer to just be wrong about things that are easily proven like above. :razz:
tornado
New member
I have always gotten a snicker out of how those pundits and NCAA spokespeople who are owned by the BCS change their tunes every year...
-20 years ago they always said just the top teams in each conference should get bids...
-then when enough bids became available due to the expansion of the field - then they only wanted the top teams in the BCS conferences...they DID not want even a 2nd place team from a mid-major conference, arguing that even the 7th best team in the Big Ten was better than the 2nd best in the MVC
-thus they devised the RPI -- it was THEIR device, made up by those who are in bed with the major conferences and BCS just to justify 6, 7, and 8 bids from BCS conferences while excluding even the 2nd best team in the Valley.
-then when we saw years like 2006 when five Valley teams had TOP 50 RPI's - SUDDENLY we saw those same pundits saying the RPI was useless - somehow the MVC "broke the code" - so some of the top RPI teams like MSU had to be excluded....they talked of "conference RPI" so a conference could be determined to be a "one bid league"...
-then they started talking up the SOS while at the same time refusing to ever play mid-majors creating the hope that even the last place team in a conference like the ACC could go ahead of the runnerup in the MVC.
-then we heard them talk "quality wins"....then road wins, ...then overall resume.....then even something so easy to just fabricate -- "the eye test" - meaning they can see who belongs but they can't prove it or show why they include the teams they do...
-It is so obviously fixed and phony and it's all about the $$ and the greed among the BCS schools.......
-20 years ago they always said just the top teams in each conference should get bids...
-then when enough bids became available due to the expansion of the field - then they only wanted the top teams in the BCS conferences...they DID not want even a 2nd place team from a mid-major conference, arguing that even the 7th best team in the Big Ten was better than the 2nd best in the MVC
-thus they devised the RPI -- it was THEIR device, made up by those who are in bed with the major conferences and BCS just to justify 6, 7, and 8 bids from BCS conferences while excluding even the 2nd best team in the Valley.
-then when we saw years like 2006 when five Valley teams had TOP 50 RPI's - SUDDENLY we saw those same pundits saying the RPI was useless - somehow the MVC "broke the code" - so some of the top RPI teams like MSU had to be excluded....they talked of "conference RPI" so a conference could be determined to be a "one bid league"...
-then they started talking up the SOS while at the same time refusing to ever play mid-majors creating the hope that even the last place team in a conference like the ACC could go ahead of the runnerup in the MVC.
-then we heard them talk "quality wins"....then road wins, ...then overall resume.....then even something so easy to just fabricate -- "the eye test" - meaning they can see who belongs but they can't prove it or show why they include the teams they do...
-It is so obviously fixed and phony and it's all about the $$ and the greed among the BCS schools.......
braveatheart
New member
You pretty much just summed it up tornado.