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Bobby Hill Ineligible?
- Thread starter DUBulldog
- Start date
MacabreMob
New member
Nice Quote:
But Irons said he would do it all again "in a heartbeat."
LOL!
But so this is going on at the HS level and we are all so stupid to think it does not go on at the collegiate level. And I am not just fingering MidMajors doing things so they can get players to compete with the BCS on the floor.... I'm talking about the BCS does it ALL THE TIME and others do it as well.
But look away, NCAA... you might lose sponsors/advertisers for all your big bowls and tournies that are you your cash cows.
But Irons said he would do it all again "in a heartbeat."
LOL!
But so this is going on at the HS level and we are all so stupid to think it does not go on at the collegiate level. And I am not just fingering MidMajors doing things so they can get players to compete with the BCS on the floor.... I'm talking about the BCS does it ALL THE TIME and others do it as well.
But look away, NCAA... you might lose sponsors/advertisers for all your big bowls and tournies that are you your cash cows.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...8C81251ED22408E5862573F200148D97?OpenDocument
So Floyd Irons paid $460 a month for Bobby Hill and his brother to live for free in an apartment by themselves (as minors) for 5 years, plus he paid all the apartment expenses, and "furnished the apartment, buying them beds and a television. He brought them food, bought them clothes, and even had a housekeeper clean and cook some "Sunday dinners" for the boys."
Counting $460 a month for 5 years comes to $27,600 just for the rent that Bobby Hill got, and that doesn't count the tens of thousands more for the utilities and other perks.
Irons also got the Hills' father a job and gave him a Cadillac!
This is about as dirty as it gets, though most people aren't surprised that this kind of illegal stuff goes on in big city public high schools.
If the NCAA is serious about punishing kids who were connected to teams where players were paid to play, then they need to look into this corruption.
So Floyd Irons paid $460 a month for Bobby Hill and his brother to live for free in an apartment by themselves (as minors) for 5 years, plus he paid all the apartment expenses, and "furnished the apartment, buying them beds and a television. He brought them food, bought them clothes, and even had a housekeeper clean and cook some "Sunday dinners" for the boys."
Counting $460 a month for 5 years comes to $27,600 just for the rent that Bobby Hill got, and that doesn't count the tens of thousands more for the utilities and other perks.
Irons also got the Hills' father a job and gave him a Cadillac!
This is about as dirty as it gets, though most people aren't surprised that this kind of illegal stuff goes on in big city public high schools.
If the NCAA is serious about punishing kids who were connected to teams where players were paid to play, then they need to look into this corruption.
BUBraves06
New member
This whole story is unreal. It's a shame that the winning-at-all-costs attitude has gotten so out of control. It makes me wonder how much money he dolled out to other athletes over the years.
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This is awful and I am not trying to make light of the situation, but I would be careful about "painting with a broad brush," and blaming it on society today.
My guess is that situations like this were MUCH more likely to happen in the "GOOD OLE' DAYS," than they are today. This looks financially like a much bigger deal than most, but stories like this aren't new to H.S. hoops historically.
In basketball crazed communitites (not just the inner city) it was common place back in the day to provide jobs for parents (or apartments only) and selectively pick foreign exchange students,etc. I am sure that most could give at least a rumor about something like this from their H.S. days from whatever era.
And in most of these places if you had any news media at all, they were as big of fans as the rest and weren't going to do any "expose"" pieces in the newspapers.
tornado
New member
These are remarkable and amazing facts....
the Vashon coach gave tens of thousands of $$$ of perks to Bobby Hill and his family. On top of that, they moved in from out of the school district, and the coach used slimy, sleazy techniques to try to hide his trail such as throwing away receipts, using money orders and not checks, and even put the lease and utilities in someone else's name even though it was Irons paying all those bills.
This is massive and almost inconceivable fraud considering we are only talking high school here.
Most certainly Vashon HS is going to get stripped of all its state titles.
And to this date, coach Irons is unrepentant and believes his misdeeds are justified by the end results...
"he was rattling off coach after coach at competing schools, all who he said likely committed similar sins.
Irons remained unrepentant. He'd rather see his players in college"
"He did not deny that he broke state association rules...
But Irons said he would do it all again "in a heartbeat."
Some related interesting links:
Here.....discussion of foul play in using inelgible players to win their titles:
http://www.rftstl.com/2007-03-07/ne...e-rival-cries-foul-over-04-championship-game/
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1043
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4534
"The best team money could buy"
http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14447
By the way, two other players caught up in these investigations and who may also have been ineligible as Vashon were
Leon Powell, and Derron Hobbs. (Hobbs transferred out of Vashon to Gateway before the "stuff" hit the fan.)
But so, also, was ex-ISU stud Lorenzo Gordon.
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3294
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6516
Lastly, this story suggests that it highly likely that Bobby Hill knowingly took cash, housing, and gifts worth
upwards of $25,000 when he was still supposedly an "amateur" and it was used as an inducement to play illegally
for a high school that he surely must have known he was ineligible to play for.
Beyond that, he then clammed up and won't speak about it, even though the honorable thing would be to be
honest and come clean, return all those improperly won state title trophies, and help with the investigation.
(ps....perhaps some will recall all the attacks, criticism, and ribbing the ISU fans
laid upon BU and BU's fan claiming that the BU players got improper benefits.
Now the shoe is clearly on the other foot, as at least two of the players
caught up in this whole thing played at ISU.)
the Vashon coach gave tens of thousands of $$$ of perks to Bobby Hill and his family. On top of that, they moved in from out of the school district, and the coach used slimy, sleazy techniques to try to hide his trail such as throwing away receipts, using money orders and not checks, and even put the lease and utilities in someone else's name even though it was Irons paying all those bills.
This is massive and almost inconceivable fraud considering we are only talking high school here.
Most certainly Vashon HS is going to get stripped of all its state titles.
And to this date, coach Irons is unrepentant and believes his misdeeds are justified by the end results...
"he was rattling off coach after coach at competing schools, all who he said likely committed similar sins.
Irons remained unrepentant. He'd rather see his players in college"
"He did not deny that he broke state association rules...
But Irons said he would do it all again "in a heartbeat."
Some related interesting links:
Here.....discussion of foul play in using inelgible players to win their titles:
http://www.rftstl.com/2007-03-07/ne...e-rival-cries-foul-over-04-championship-game/
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1043
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4534
"The best team money could buy"
http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14447
By the way, two other players caught up in these investigations and who may also have been ineligible as Vashon were
Leon Powell, and Derron Hobbs. (Hobbs transferred out of Vashon to Gateway before the "stuff" hit the fan.)
But so, also, was ex-ISU stud Lorenzo Gordon.
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3294
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6516
Lastly, this story suggests that it highly likely that Bobby Hill knowingly took cash, housing, and gifts worth
upwards of $25,000 when he was still supposedly an "amateur" and it was used as an inducement to play illegally
for a high school that he surely must have known he was ineligible to play for.
Beyond that, he then clammed up and won't speak about it, even though the honorable thing would be to be
honest and come clean, return all those improperly won state title trophies, and help with the investigation.
(ps....perhaps some will recall all the attacks, criticism, and ribbing the ISU fans
laid upon BU and BU's fan claiming that the BU players got improper benefits.
Now the shoe is clearly on the other foot, as at least two of the players
caught up in this whole thing played at ISU.)
lake Camelot
New member
I was just wondering about the title of the thread (future/former) what do you mean by the future part? Does he have a son that is going to ISU? Just curious
tornado
New member
Bobby Hill was recruited by Porter Moser and played his freshman season at ISU. He is presently at Lincoln Junior College and has signed a Letter of Intent to return to ISU next fall.
Now some other news outlets are getting the story
http://www.nebraska.tv/Global/story.asp?S=7885438&nav=menu605_2
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/494189.html
There's also a good story about ISU's transfers who will be eligible next tyear, Chamberlain Oguchi and Landon Shipley,
But.......it is odd how they include only passing mention of Blake Mishler who is similarly a DI transfer who'll be eligible next year.
http://pantagraph.com/articles/2008/02/18/usports/doc47b8dc1c673cb336449009.txt
Now some other news outlets are getting the story
http://www.nebraska.tv/Global/story.asp?S=7885438&nav=menu605_2
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/494189.html
There's also a good story about ISU's transfers who will be eligible next tyear, Chamberlain Oguchi and Landon Shipley,
But.......it is odd how they include only passing mention of Blake Mishler who is similarly a DI transfer who'll be eligible next year.
http://pantagraph.com/articles/2008/02/18/usports/doc47b8dc1c673cb336449009.txt
DannyCooksey
New member
I would suppose the main difference here is that these issues (while serious) occured before these players ever set foot on ISU's campus, whereas the BU infractions occured while the players were enrolled at and playing for Bradley University and under Bradley University supervision and playing under a Bradley University issued full athletic scholarship.
Some might say those facts makes these cases a bit different.
lake Camelot
New member
OK sorry for the memory lapse. I was thinking of a forward who played there and was about 6'6" tall. I can't remember his name.I should really stop posting now because I'm ashamed I can't remember his name. I thought it was Bobby, I looked and a list of their hall of fame and didn't recognize his name. Anyone have any idea who I am thinking of?
Edit: I think it was Rico Hill I was thinking of. Oh well.
basketball nut
Active member
It is so sad that we have come to this but then look at his one statement I would rather see the kids in college then on the streets (probably misquoted) but you get the idea. I can see where he comes from but don't agree w/ the way he went about doing it. As many have said this isn't anything new and I have even heard the rumblings for the past 35 years that I have lived in Central IL that it even has gone on here (I really hope not but sour grapes usually lead to rumers)
Is it time that high school associations along w/ the NCAA look into how kids in sports are treated and how they can really help them to a better life? YES is my answer to that. Am I saying that the kids shouldn't have to go to school, not at all. We all have heard of so many stories around the country of kids that were outstanding basketball players that have got in trouble because of the cicumstances of where they lived and really coudn't do a lot obout it. Is this an excuse for cheating? Not at all as there is never an excuse for cheating but somehow these kids need to get help so instead of being on the streets, dealing drugs, stealing, or even in prison they are becoming useful citizens.
I guess my whole point is I understand where he is coming from but I don't agree w/ the way he went about doing it and, yes, he needs to be punished but somehow it needs to be changed also.
The one thing that hasn't been brought into all this is that there are so many private schools (like Oak Hill Academy or Decatur Christian last year) that take these kids in and no one will make me believe that they are paying their own tuition at those schools no matter what the school says. (they can't get out of the housing situation they are in but can afford an $8-12,000 a year school-that's a laugh) These schools are supplying a service for free that by the true rule of thumb makes each one of these players a professional and this would go for the Hill brothers as well but we overlook these private schools and let them continue this abuse of players. If it is not abuse then all schools should be able to get away w/ it.
Is it time that high school associations along w/ the NCAA look into how kids in sports are treated and how they can really help them to a better life? YES is my answer to that. Am I saying that the kids shouldn't have to go to school, not at all. We all have heard of so many stories around the country of kids that were outstanding basketball players that have got in trouble because of the cicumstances of where they lived and really coudn't do a lot obout it. Is this an excuse for cheating? Not at all as there is never an excuse for cheating but somehow these kids need to get help so instead of being on the streets, dealing drugs, stealing, or even in prison they are becoming useful citizens.
I guess my whole point is I understand where he is coming from but I don't agree w/ the way he went about doing it and, yes, he needs to be punished but somehow it needs to be changed also.
The one thing that hasn't been brought into all this is that there are so many private schools (like Oak Hill Academy or Decatur Christian last year) that take these kids in and no one will make me believe that they are paying their own tuition at those schools no matter what the school says. (they can't get out of the housing situation they are in but can afford an $8-12,000 a year school-that's a laugh) These schools are supplying a service for free that by the true rule of thumb makes each one of these players a professional and this would go for the Hill brothers as well but we overlook these private schools and let them continue this abuse of players. If it is not abuse then all schools should be able to get away w/ it.
tornado
New member
no.......but this excuse of whatever it takes to get the kids to college, is eerily similar to the excuse used a few months
ago by Maryland head coach Gary Williams to explain his woefully low (zero percent) graduation rate......
"...OK, they haven't gotten a degree....
(but the ones who are playing pro ball).....are very successful people," Maryland coach Gary Williams said. "If you go to
school to improve yourself economically, where have they failed? They make more than the average college graduate."
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5215
So, the whole thing with the education and the degree is just a sham, really if they just make a few bucks playing even
low-level pro ball, then that's even better than getting a college degree for the scholarship, according to Gary Williams' alibi
for such terrible academic success.
basketball nut
Active member
The sad part of all of this that most of them are not able to handle the money they get and are still broke when they are done-it just depends how good the agent is or if they end up w/ one who only wants his money and doesn't care about the person. So they make great money and end up poor-what good came from that-Most need an education in money management and don't get one at school or at home. (the one area that the school needs to address already in HS but think that the math, science, and foreign languages are more important then day to day living and the poverty continues)
tornado
New member
Bobby Hill Ineligible?
A new followup article in the St. Louis Post Dispatch...
Bobby Hill could be ruled permanently ineligible............
"Athletics directors from two universities and one junior college (SEMO - where Johnny Hill plays and Lincoln JC & ISU where Bobby Hill has played)
are reacting to an admission by former basketball coach Floyd Irons that he paid to house, clothe and feed two Illinois brothers so they could play for Vashon High School, a basketball powerhouse.
As a consequence, Bobby and Johnny Hill, of Alton, could be banned from playing college basketball, the directors said....
They could be ruled permanently ineligible..."
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sp...9A7DC16BF60CCCDC862573F400396C5B?OpenDocument
Southeast Missouri plans on sitting out Johnny Hill in anticipation that he
might be deemed ineligible and if so, it could cost them a forfeit.
Will Lincoln College follow suit, and will ISU pull their scholarship offer?
http://www.missourinet.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=3209796C-A01B-5692-14408C9D31DBC0A7
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sp...7CC447FF6679FC9D862573E8005B7967?OpenDocument
http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/stlog/2008/02/basketball_by_the_book_floyd_i_1.php
A new followup article in the St. Louis Post Dispatch...
Bobby Hill could be ruled permanently ineligible............
"Athletics directors from two universities and one junior college (SEMO - where Johnny Hill plays and Lincoln JC & ISU where Bobby Hill has played)
are reacting to an admission by former basketball coach Floyd Irons that he paid to house, clothe and feed two Illinois brothers so they could play for Vashon High School, a basketball powerhouse.
As a consequence, Bobby and Johnny Hill, of Alton, could be banned from playing college basketball, the directors said....
They could be ruled permanently ineligible..."
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sp...9A7DC16BF60CCCDC862573F400396C5B?OpenDocument
Southeast Missouri plans on sitting out Johnny Hill in anticipation that he
might be deemed ineligible and if so, it could cost them a forfeit.
Will Lincoln College follow suit, and will ISU pull their scholarship offer?
http://www.missourinet.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=3209796C-A01B-5692-14408C9D31DBC0A7
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sp...7CC447FF6679FC9D862573E8005B7967?OpenDocument
http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/stlog/2008/02/basketball_by_the_book_floyd_i_1.php
IMO this would be a travesty. I agree that you have to discourage this type of behavior, no doubt.
But to take away the opportunity to get an education by the kids who were taken advange of would be wrong IMO.
mike radigan
New member
I completely disagree. These "kids" know exactly what they are doing. I never did like schools being punished unless they are party to the cheating. Punish involved coaches and players. It has to hurt the cheaters before they stop.
I would tend to agree with your line of thinking. I am totally a "personal responsibility" type person.
But, my guess is that when this stuff began, just using Bobby Hill as an example, he was what maybe 16 years old.
I dunno, maybe I am way off base.
tornado
New member
Of course there will be obligatory delay until the case is fully researched, even though the improper benefits were 6-7 years ago!!
But if as alledged, Bobby Hill got four full years of benefits in high school, then how does this differ from any other "amateur" athlete getting paid as a professional for several years then trying to go to college and claiming he's still an amateur.
There's even an issue of honesty and integrity, since just accepting his scholarship (as Hill did at ISU and at Lincoln College) required him to answer questions and attest that he has NOT received improper gifts, but now we know he certainly HAS and clearly MUST have known he has, so the issue of honesty and hiding these violations has to come up as well.
Sadly, there is almost no other place to draw the line than to deem both of the Hills ineligible for four years of college. Those are the NCAA rules.
It doesn't prohibit Hill from going and playing NAIA or NCCAA, which has different rules.
http://www.thenccaa.org/division1.html
or even going to play pro ball (CBA, Europe), but I agree with Mike Radigan....rules are rules.
I know I am a bit cynical, but how come whever the issue of rules comes up in regards to Bradley, EVERYONE seems to come down strongly
that BU must follow the rules and they deserve the penalty they get, as in the POB situation, etc....
Then just as soon as some other school (especially a BCS school) gets caught in a rules issue....we start hearing the mea culpa's claiming that it just isn't fair to the kids if we follow the rules.
Clear double standard, but watch it unfold......I can already show you comments by ISU fans saying they should NOT apply the rules to Bobby Hill as it would be unfair.
But if as alledged, Bobby Hill got four full years of benefits in high school, then how does this differ from any other "amateur" athlete getting paid as a professional for several years then trying to go to college and claiming he's still an amateur.
There's even an issue of honesty and integrity, since just accepting his scholarship (as Hill did at ISU and at Lincoln College) required him to answer questions and attest that he has NOT received improper gifts, but now we know he certainly HAS and clearly MUST have known he has, so the issue of honesty and hiding these violations has to come up as well.
Sadly, there is almost no other place to draw the line than to deem both of the Hills ineligible for four years of college. Those are the NCAA rules.
It doesn't prohibit Hill from going and playing NAIA or NCCAA, which has different rules.
http://www.thenccaa.org/division1.html
or even going to play pro ball (CBA, Europe), but I agree with Mike Radigan....rules are rules.
I know I am a bit cynical, but how come whever the issue of rules comes up in regards to Bradley, EVERYONE seems to come down strongly
that BU must follow the rules and they deserve the penalty they get, as in the POB situation, etc....
Then just as soon as some other school (especially a BCS school) gets caught in a rules issue....we start hearing the mea culpa's claiming that it just isn't fair to the kids if we follow the rules.
Clear double standard, but watch it unfold......I can already show you comments by ISU fans saying they should NOT apply the rules to Bobby Hill as it would be unfair.
