Is this BU's second worst decade ever?

[Da Coach]

What did Joe Stowell ever win?

Respect.

Ridiculous. Ask the other coaches in the MVC if they respect Jim Les. To your surprise, they all do. Ask the President of Bradley, the AD, the BSS, and the Braves Club and anyone else who matters at Bradley if they repect Jim Les. I already know the answer.
In fact even the few people I have ever met who want a different coach, still respect Jim Les for his integrity, intelligence, honesty, hard work, and ethical standards.
Just because a tiny minority of disgruntled fans have some personal grudge, doesn't mean everyone shares your irrational hatred for our coach.

 

[Da Coach]

Wow- now people are attacking Joe Stowell... unbelieveable...

Braveman, nobody is attacking Joe Stowell.
This entire thread is actually just another attempt to attack Jim Les.
Joe's record stands on it's own merit, I was not the one who brought it up.
But those here who are now trying to drag out this argument that Jim Les's record is worse than the last decade of Jow Stowell's regime, are the ones who are delusional, and are showing how desperate they are.

 

[BU RICK]

If we are going to try to parse Stowell's record to try to make it look better, and criticize Jim Les' teams for playing in the CBI and CIT, then it's only fair to point out some other things, too that "padded the record" of Joe Stowell.
At least the wins in the CBI and CIT were against quality Division I teams.
Stowell's teams played some abysmally weak competetion early in their seasons that guaranteed several extra easy wins.
They did not play "exhibition games" back then, so these were actual scheduled games that counted-
St. Ambrose, Samford, and Tennessee-Martin (in '73-'74)
Illinois Wesleyan, Steubenville, and Wheaton ('74-'75)
Fort Lewis and Samford ('75-'76)
Quincy and Illinois Tech ('76-'77)
Illinois Wesleyan, Quincy, and Cal-Hayward ('77-'78 ).
Those are just the most obvious ones. There were also games most years against Westren Illinois, Loyola, and other very low level teams on the schedule.

And the other factor I would argue is that the Missouri Valley simply was not as good a conference top-to-bottom then as it has been the last decade. The MVC always had 2 or 3 very good teams, but they had some bottom dwellers than that guaranteed a couple easy conference wins every year.
Nobody I know has ever suggested Joe Stowell wasn't a very good coach, and I don't see anyone here saying that. He always got his players to play hard, and overachieve. But his teams usually played with talent that might politely be called second tier. Jim Les has been criticized endlessly here for never winning a conference or tournament title. What did Joe Stowell ever win?

And if Jim Les ever scheduled a home game against Steubenville or Illinois Tech (not just an exhibition) just to pad his win total, the fans would revolt.

You have got to be kidding, right?? Who were the teams in the MVC when Joe coached, you're the expert. The ones I remember, that left, for basically football reasons were Louisville, Tulsa, Memphis, Cincinnati...? Who are the ones that replaced them. So I completely disagree. The competition was much tougher when Joe Stowell coached.

 

[Da Coach]

We are talking about the 1970's. Not the 1960's. I didn't start this thread or set the parameters.

I conceded that the MVC always had a couple very good teams in the early 70's. Louisville, Cincinnati, and Memphis were very good. But you are wrong to include Tulsa, they were not a national power back then in the 70's.

You are also are wrong about Cincinnati- they left the MVC after the 1969-1970 season, and were not a factor in Joe Stowell's record in the 70's.
The 2 teams that I conceded, Memphis left after the 1972-1973 season, and Louisville left after the 1974-1975 season, so for the last several years that Joe coached, he did not have to deal with any of those national power teams that won the MVC in the 60's and early 70's.

 

[tornado]

--different decades...
I think Da Coach would NOT dispute that in the 60's the Valley was tougher than now...but he's specifically pointing to the 1970's when BU's competition became far weaker....an entire decade where Coach Stowell had the benefit of playing those no-name opponents, and by 1969 Cincy was gone from the Valley, by 1973 Memphis was gone, and by 1974 Louisville was gone...
So most of the 1970's the teams we played were either some of the same ones we play now plus, North Texas, New Mexico State, West Texas State, not exactly frightful opponents...

 

[AE Braves Fan]

Is this BU's second worst decade ever?

No.

But this thread is battling those "go big, GET US A 5 NOW!!" threads for worst thread ever.

 

[Braveman]

Braveman, nobody is attacking Joe Stowell.
This entire thread is actually just another attempt to attack Jim Les.
Joe's record stands on it's own merit, I was not the one who brought it up.
But those here who are now trying to drag out this argument that Jim Les's record is worse than the last decade of Jow Stowell's regime, are the ones who are delusional, and are showing how desperate they are.

I didn't see it that way.. Chico first said that in 5 years a lot could happen and I took that as meaning he thought likely JL's would be better than Joe's record...

Despite all your protests to the contrary, some people will always go after whomever the coach is...

I think we all agree that we have struggled all things considered and need to be better...And I think JL would agree with that... The disagreement is how we get there, and when...

 

[Da Coach]

I am sure JL does agree with that, he has said so. I just happen to believe Jim is the best person to bring Bradley back. Bradley does not need a total rebuilding, they have had recent success, and are not derelict now. Next year will be great, and I also predict a superb recruiting class!

 

[BU RICK]

I wasn't talking about the 1970's. I was talking about your statement that the MV was not as good a conference top-to-bottom then it has been the last decade. I don't agree with that, JMO. The MVC was once rated the top conference in the country for several years. TV money and schools leaving the conference changed that.

 

[Bradleyguy10]

I too hope next year will be great. We have the parts...once again.

 

[BradleyBrave]

I am sure JL does agree with that, he has said so. I just happen to believe Jim is the best person to bring Bradley back. Bradley does not need a total rebuilding, they have had recent success, and are not derelict now. Next year will be great, and I also predict a superb recruiting class!

Last year I was really high on getting a class full of high school kids to have a real foundation for the future. We did that, I just hope all four of them stay (only really worried about one not staying). This year I am for getting a couple of game-ready JUCO kids, preferably a big and a point guard. A run to Sunday this weekend could be a tremendous momentum builder for next year, which I think we all agree is critical year for this program.

 

[squirrelgotdead]

I wasn't talking about the 1970's. I was talking about your statement that the MV was not as good a conference top-to-bottom then it has been the last decade. I don't agree with that, JMO. The MVC was once rated the top conference in the country for several years. TV money and schools leaving the conference changed that.

Exactly. The first half of the 1970's the schools in the league were dumping boatloads of money into athletics and Bradley failed to keep up.

 

[littlebishforpres]

In fact even the few people I have ever met who want a different coach, still respect Jim Les for his integrity, intelligence, honesty, hard work, and ethical standards.
Just because a tiny minority of disgruntled fans have some personal grudge, doesn't mean everyone shares your irrational hatred for our coach.

Da Coach, how do you really know what the other nine coaches think about Jim Les? Really? How can anyone say one way or another what those coaches feel about him.

But on the point I quoted, I don't see any of this personal hatred and grudge against Jim Les that you see. Maybe the people you hang with or connect with feel that way about Jim Les but I don't see it.

Again, because a Bradley fan thinks its time the university go in a new direction with the basketball program does NOT mean that fan hates Jim Les personally, doesn't respect him personally, or thinks he is a hard worker, an intelligent guy, etc.

I have some BU friends who think its time for a coaching change. I have some who think he should get Sammy/Andrews senior year. Some are in Peoria, some are not. Not a single one of them, myself included, has anything but good things to say about Jim Les the person. Nothing but good things to say about how hard he works, his character, etc. Because someone thinks he shouldn't be the head coach at Bradley anymore doesn't mean they don't like, or respect him.

I just don't see these so-called personal grudges out there. Who are these people?

 

[Da Coach]

Exactly. The first half of the 1970's the schools in the league were dumping boatloads of money into athletics and Bradley failed to keep up.

Bradley never had boatloads of money to dump into athletics until Jim Les was hired in 2002. Even the last few years under Mo, though there were grandiose ideas of refurbishing the athletic facilities, there was barely enough money to afford a new coat of paint in the Fieldhouse foyer.

Only after JL was hired did new revenue streams begin and flourish. Now that money has been put to good use, and for the first time in over 50 years Bradley will have state of the art athletic facilities for athletes to train and to use as a recruiting tool.

And though we owe a great deal of the credit and gratitude to Jim Les, there are some here who say we should fire him before he ever gets to take advantage of the new facilities he was a major factor in developing at Bradley. Unbelievable.

 

[Da Coach]

Da Coach, how do you really know what the other nine coaches think about Jim Les? Really? How can anyone say one way or another what those coaches feel about him.

It is public record what they all say.
So now are we to throw out what peiople actually say so we can assume they really do not have the respect they say thay do?
Such ignoring of the facts and presuming something totally assumed is the domain of those lacking real ideas.

 

[BradleyBrave]

And though we owe a great deal of the credit and gratitude to Jim Les, there are some here who say we should fire him before he ever gets to take advantage of the new facilities he was a major factor in developing at Bradley. Unbelievable.

Is it unbelievable? We've had enough talent here pre-facilities to win (I believe we've had 4 teams capable of winning the league in JL's tenure, a credit to him), and haven't. If the facilities thing had really been that big of a detriment to us landing players then perhaps I could put a little more stock into it, but I think we're all in agreement that we've had some darn good players come through here in the last 8 years, and even before that. Now, I am not saying that the facilities won't help recruiting - in reality they already have as several of our current players cited the new facilities as a deciding factor (again, the talent is good enough to win in this league). But we have had the talent to win here before, and haven't. What can I hang my hat on to believe that will change? Blind faith? I want to believe, I really do!

 

[squirrelgotdead]

Bradley never had boatloads of money to dump into athletics until Jim Les was hired in 2002. Even the last few years under Mo, though there were grandiose ideas of refurbishing the athletic facilities, there was barely enough money to afford a new coat of paint in the Fieldhouse foyer.

Only after JL was hired did new revenue streams begin and flourish. Now that money has been put to good use, and for the first time in over 50 years Bradley will have state of the art athletic facilities for athletes to train and to use as a recruiting tool.

And though we owe a great deal of the credit and gratitude to Jim Les, there are some here who say we should fire him before he ever gets to take advantage of the new facilities he was a major factor in developing at Bradley. Unbelievable.

Bradley is a business. In business you need to spend money to make money. If Bradley had ponied up then, even when it was only modestly able to, we could perhaps be playing major football and maybe in a bigger league.

I realize BU had limited means, that was not my point. Many of those other schools also had limited means. But they capitalized on college sports becoming big business. Bradley's reluctance caused them to miss the boat.

And no matter who you say it to or how many times you say it this motto that BU "never had boatloads of money" until JL was here is poppycock. Pure and simple. Yes, there was a push when he was hired. But much of that money was part of a larger university effort, so they are not directly related, though the hire may have been motivated by the latter. But what you say is simply not true. Bradley has always had plenty of resources for basketball, it has simply been overly conservative and reluctant to spend it on sports. Which I can commend, except for the fact they have done it to a fault and has hampered growth. I think the new administration has other designs and will spend whatever it takes to win and win big. And that has little to do with JL either.

 

[Beninator]

Stowell's coaching ability should never be called into question.

Did he struggle? Yes. He did have limited resources, but he also did have some overachieving years too.

The biggest area the lack of resources had an impact was recruiting. And if you talk to ANY coach he faced, including Wooden, he had one of the best reputations in the profession as being able to coach circles around opponents.

SGD, I agree with you about Coach Stowell.

I was under the impression that BU allocated more money for salaries, recruiting, etc when DV took over. (I am not talking about the extras that got us in trouble)

All I am meaning to say is that when BU allocates the resources to the basketball program and demonstrates that they want to upgrade the product on the floor, the wins will come.

 

[littlebishforpres]

Bradley never had boatloads of money to dump into athletics until Jim Les was hired in 2002. Even the last few years under Mo, though there were grandiose ideas of refurbishing the athletic facilities, there was barely enough money to afford a new coat of paint in the Fieldhouse foyer.

Only after JL was hired did new revenue streams begin and flourish. Now that money has been put to good use, and for the first time in over 50 years Bradley will have state of the art athletic facilities for athletes to train and to use as a recruiting tool.

And though we owe a great deal of the credit and gratitude to Jim Les, there are some here who say we should fire him before he ever gets to take advantage of the new facilities he was a major factor in developing at Bradley. Unbelievable.

The new facilities were going to happen one way or another. Bradley had a major capital campaign when Molinari was on the job. The campaign was a huge success. It just happened, that at the time, the money was needed for other areas on campus. When the athletic facilities became a priority and other things got done then the attention went there.

Olin Hall was redone, Baker Hall was redone, there was the new GCC, the St. James complex, the refurbishment of Bradley Hall, upgrades to the Engineering building. Then, after that, it was time to address the athletic facilities.

I'm not sold that Jim Les was the main rainmaker, reason the athletic facilities were built. Im also not sold that they will make much difference one way or another in the W/L column. I have yet to see evidence that new facilities lead to more wins on a team's ledger.

 

[Da Coach]

One more comment about the '70's, and again, I love Coach Stowell and he was a great coach, but...


Cincinnati- left the MVC after the 1969-1970 season,
Memphis- left after the 1972-1973 season
Louisville- left after the 1974-1975 season

so all 3 of the national power teams from the MVC were gone by the middle of the decade. Bradley should have cleaned up in the diluted, weakened-down MVC after that. We even had an All-American and future NBA player on the roster (who was a walkon and not recruited), yet here are the results for those last years of Coach Stowell-

'75 - 15-11 - .577
'76 - 13-13 - .500
'77 - 9-18 - .333
'78 - 14-14 - .500

After Bradley' All American left, the talent level on the team was at the lowest level in Bradley's entire history, before or since. And nobody thinks Bradley's record was going to get better if Coach Stowell stayed. So a change was made at the right time. And the rest is history. I can't see how anyone can compare Bradley's last few years to these last few years of Coach Stowell's teams in the '70s.