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Ugly game of the day

Da Coach

Da Coach

Moderator
Staff member
Toledo lost to Western Michigan last night. It was their 46th straight road loss! Their road record is 1-61 over the last 3 seasons.
Toledo is having an absolutely terrible year, and they trailed WMU 43-5 with 4:40 left in the first half.-
http://www.foxsportsohio.com/02/24/...anding_toledo.html?blockID=416848&feedID=3725

Toledo is an example of what can happen when a D1 team changes coaches. In 2008 they fired Stan Joplin after just 1 losing season. Joplin had come off several winning seasons in a row, including winning the #1 seed in the MAC just 1 year earlier in 2007. But they tought they could do better, so in 2008 they hired Notre Dame assistant Gene Cross, who was hailed as a great young coach and a great recruiter.
Here are a few quotes that I found regarding the hiring of Gene Cross-

"I think Gene is going to do a great job with the Toledo basketball program and will help them win a championship and get an NCAA Tournament bid. He ranks right up there with any of the assistant coaches I had and 12 of those got major Division I head coaching jobs. He??™s a tremendous recruiter and a class act."
??” Digger Phelps, ESPN analyst and former Notre Dame head coach
"Toledo captured a star on the rise in Gene Cross. His unyielding work ethic, vast network of recruiting contacts and program-centric approach will all pay immediate dividends. Given his enthusiasm and eye for talent, Toledo basketball is in very good hands."
??” John Paxson, Chicago Bulls??™ Executive Vice President of Basketball Operations and member of three NBA championship teams
"Gene is a great communicator and has what it takes to be a tremendous head coach. He??™s done very well as an assistant coach at several good programs, and I believe he will do an outstanding job leading the Toledo program into the future."
??” Lou Henson, former Illinois and New Mexico State basketball coach
"Gene has the entire package and is one of the up-and-coming young coaches in this country. He??™s bright, personable, intelligent and inspiring. I believe Gene is going to do a great job at Toledo. He??™s a proven recruiter and knows the game of basketball. He comes from a very good academic background and is committed to the total student-athlete."
??” Kevin Anderson, Army Director of Athletics
"Gene Cross is an outstanding young coaching prospect. He is smart, energetic and he is a good teacher who relates to his players very well. Gene has a really bright future in coaching, and I am confident that he will be very succesful. Toledo hired a good one in Gene Cross."
??” Jay Bilas, ESPN analyst
"There??™s not another coach in America more deserving of a head coaching position than Gene Cross. His work as an assistant in the ACC, Big East and Horizon League has prepared him well for this opportunity."
??” Steve Bardo, ESPN analyst
"Gene is a strong and determined leader. He??™s passionate. He??™s been mentored by one of the top basketball coaches in the country, Mike Brey. I am confident that Gene will have a high impact on the Toledo Basketball program."
??” Kevin White, Duke University Vice President & Director of Athletics
"I??™m really excited for Toledo and for Gene Cross. He??™s a great fit. He??™s been ready to be a head coach the last couple of years but was waiting for the right situation and certainly Toledo is that. Gene is the kind of guy you would want your son or daughter to play for."
??” Mike Brey, University of Notre Dame Head Coach & 2006-07 and 2007-08 Big East Coach of the Year
"When you see a guy as talented as Gene you recognize it right away. I have not doubt that Gene??™s personality and background will allow him to flourish as the head coach of the Toledo basketball program and make the Rockets an annual contender for the NCAA Tournament in the very near future."
??” John Hammond, Milwaukee Bucks General Manager
"I am extremely happy and pleased that after years of successful and diligent work that Gene gets his first opportunity to be a college head coach. It is well deserved. I couldn??™t be happier for a young man who is definitely prepared and I am sure he will do very well. Toledo is a terrific university and is in an area of the country that will allow him to do well in recruiting, coaching, and running a very successful basketball program."
??” Dave Leitao, University of Virginia Head Coach

But the 2 years under Gene Cross were a terrible disaster. Most of the players left Toledo when Cross was hired, and their recruits were released from their LOIs. Cross went 7-25 in 2008-09 and 4-28 in 2009-10 as he tried to rebuild.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/george_dohrmann/02/03/toledo/index.html
Cross had a fine 8-man recruiting class in 2009 (his 2nd year). He had a couple freshmen on the All-freshman team that year, and one of them, Jake Barnett, was runner-up to DJ Cooper for Freshman of the Year in the MAC, and was their leading scorer, so the future looked brighter.
But the powers at Toledo were not willing to be patient, and felt Cross was not the coach to lead them back to success. So they fired Gene Cross in 2010, and hired former Wisconsin-Green Bay head coach Tod Kowalczyk to replace Cross who had only coached for 2 seasons, and was trying to rebuild a program with a lot of good young talent.
Again, there was a massive exodus of players from Toledo. Jake Barnett transferred to St. Louis (after considering Bradley), and several other very good players left.
Kowalczyk is now mired in another horrible season. His record at Toledo this season is 4-24 and one of those wins was over Indiana Northwest (non-D1). Ironically, their only conference win this season was over Western Michigan, the team that walloped them last night.

Stan Joplin's last team in 2007 was 11-19 with an RPI of 187. That was bad enough to get him fired after 4 winning seasons prior to that, including a #1 seed in the MAC just 1 season before he was fired.
Since Joplin's firing, Toledo has gone-
2008-2009 7-25 RPI 317 under Cross
2009-2010 4-28 RPI 324 under Cross
2010-2011 4-24 RPI 329 under Kowalczyk

Now they have gone from bad, to really bad, to embarrassingly bad. Maybe the people at Toledo will fire Tod Kowalczyk and change coaches again?
The "fire-the-coach" people do not want to hear this, but this is good example of what can happen to a decent midmajor program when coaching changes are made.
 
Imagine if the situations were actually comparable!

Look at a guy like Matt Brady. Steps right in at Marist and James Madison and within 2 years lead each program to their best years in decades.

Let's just stop it. There's an impasse, and stuff like this only opens the door for loss of decorum.
 
Oh, so it's OK to keep starting "fire the coach" threads and throwing out examples of coaching changes that work, and ridiculing anyone who advises caution, but not OK to point out a different outcome.
Somehow I knew this would be the reaction this would get.

draft_lens2306692module12770623photo_1227682215angry_child_with_hands_over_ears.jpg


Just how is the Joplin/2008 change not comparable to where Bradley is now? Those same fans and boosters who were in a rush to dump Joplin and now many regret it. Toledo used to have a large and rabid fan base, one of the best in the MAC. They now draw around 4,000 per game, thousands less than they drew a few years ago.
 
You know what, Da Coach...I actually do not want that to happen.

BUT, I'm perfectly prepared to go through 2-3 terrible years and reboot again if necessary.

It's the nature of the business, and sometimes in business, you need to bottom out and completely purge the system to get better.

I would like to think that the bottoming out happened this year. I certainly realize that may not be the case. But it is hard to imagine a program that has never finished alone in last place in over 100 years of basketball is destined to repeat the task.
 
Gene Cross wasn't fired. He resigned after a letter got to the AD from a women with some sort of allegations.

I don't think Cross would have walked away from $700,000 plus, and I don't think Toledo would have ever paid him $700,000 by firing him.


As a DePaul fan I got to know Gene. Good guy. Feel bad for him with what happened at Toledo... he was an upcomer and was one of our better recruiters under Dave Leitao.

I could understand how you might be afraid to make a coaching change, but the change that we made this year getting rid of the worst NCAA coach in history was one of the best things to happen to our program. We got more a "respectable" class coming in, and DPU's best 2 players are freshman. Donations are up, attendance has been on the rise, students have showed up more. And we've only won 1 game in the Big East this year! You never know what might happen if Bradley were to make the switch.

BTW...Simms Edwards is going to be a great player for BU.
 
Da Coach said:
Just how is the Joplin/2008 change not comparable to where Bradley is now? Those same fans and boosters who were in a rush to dump Joplin and now many regret it. Toledo used to have a large and rabid fan base, one of the best in the MAC. They now draw around 4,000 per game, thousands less than they drew a few years ago.
Click to expand...

We've had fewer than 4000 for at least one game this year. And it wasn't the "snow bowl"
 
depaulfan said:
Gene Cross wasn't fired. He resigned after a letter got to the AD from a women with some sort of allegations.

I don't think Cross would have walked away from $700,000 plus, and I don't think Toledo would have ever paid him $700,000 by firing him.
Click to expand...

Another excellent point.
 
OK, but at Toledo, that "bottoming out" has lasted 3 seasons since the coaching change, and the end it nowhere in sight. They are not just bottoming out, but a real embarrassment. Not comparable to our situation where the team underperformed, mostly due to unprecedented injury issues.
 
depaulfan said:
Gene Cross wasn't fired. He resigned after a letter got to the AD from a women with some sort of allegations.

I don't think Cross would have walked away from $700,000 plus, and I don't think Toledo would have ever paid him $700,000 by firing him.


As a DePaul fan I got to know Gene. Good guy. Feel bad for him with what happened at Toledo... he was an upcomer and was one of our better recruiters under Dave Leitao.

I could understand how you might be afraid to make a coaching change, but the change that we made this year getting rid of the worst NCAA coach in history was one of the best things to happen to our program. We got more a "respectable" class coming in, and DPU's best 2 players are freshman. Donations are up, attendance has been on the rise, students have showed up more. And we've only won 1 game in the Big East this year! You never know what might happen if Bradley were to make the switch.

BTW...Simms Edwards is going to be a great player for BU.
Click to expand...

Yes, the official line is that Cross "resigned". But we all know what that means. He was offered a respectable settlement, and "resigned" to avoid more embarrassment. In reality, he was forced out, and much of it had to do with his abysmal on-court performance. This article even pointed out that he remained on the Toledo payroll for 6 months after he left.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:JEw0MF5dhYsJ:www.toledoblade.com/article/20100317/COLUMNIST08/3170370/0/RSS10+/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3D%2Bsite:toledoblade.com%2B%2522gene%2Bcross%2522%2Bfired&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

Evidence points to Cross being fired, not quitting

There is one question regarding Gene Cross leaving the University of Toledo that no one seems able or willing to answer.There is one question regarding Gene Cross leaving the University of Toledo that no one seems able or willing to answer.
If the men's basketball coach quit, why is he remaining on the payroll until Aug. 1?
"That was the arrangement that was made," UT athletic director Mike O'Brien said. "That's all I can tell you."

O'Brien has said from the start that Cross quit. Cross insisted he quit. A university spokesman says Cross quit. Some UT trustees have told The Blade that their impression was Cross quit.
Anybody with half a brain knows they're all full of it. Or, at the very least, they are playing fast and free with semantics.
If you or I quit our jobs today, we're off the payroll by dinnertime. If we're fired and our contract calls for severance, then we get a check on our way out the door.
But Cross quits and gets the check too?
It doesn't work that way, friends, even in the wacky world of college coaching contracts, especially at a publicly funded university and especially at a mid-major school whose athletic department counts pennies and paperclips.
UT may have a resignation letter signed by Cross, but him voluntarily quitting is not what happened.
What happened is that Cross won 11 games in two years, and only four during the most recent and most wretched season. Based on the talent on the floor, and the coaching those players were getting, there was little reason to expect more than marginal improvement next season. On that basis alone, UT needed to make a change.
Then, a letter surfaced that called Cross' personal life into question. We won't go into all the lurid details, but it wasn't flattering. For the record, Cross denied the allegations.
I can't tell you how I know this, but I can tell you this wasn't the first time UT officials heard similar rumors. It wasn't even the first time they had addressed them with the coach.
But on the heels of a 4-28 season - the worst in Rocket history - that featured 19 straight losses, it was the tipping point. From the president's office to the Savage Arena suites to the athletic department suits, it was clear Cross had to go.
Keeping him on the payroll through Aug. 1 - in essence, five months of severance pay worth about $100,000 - was the push to get him quickly and quietly (it didn't quite pan out, eh?) through the door. It also was in Cross' best interest to leave the rest of his contracted base pay, about $750,000, on the table if he had any hope of escaping under the cover of darkness and landing another job in coaching. Good luck.
Toledo's final RPI was No. 324 out of 347 Division I basketball teams. When longtime coach Stan Joplin was fired after the 2007-08 season, the Rockets ranked No. 187 out of 341 teams and that was just one season removed from being a top-100 program.
The slide has been precipitous and for that reason Cross had to be replaced. All the other stuff, and it's possible we haven't heard the end of it, just greased his exit.
Cross quit? It may say that on a piece of paper, and UT officials can repeat it all they like, but the rest of us have 100,000 reasons to not be so gullible.

Contact Blade sports columnist
Dave Hackenberg at:
 
Da Coach---of course you can find examples where coaching changes didn't work. And you can find examples of coaching changes that worked wonderfully (don't need to look past Bradley's own history for that).

I'm not sure why people are so scared of change. Let's just keep the status quo. Finish 4th or 5th. Move along. Not awful but not good. Making a change involves taking a little bit of risk. Everyone realizes that.

But risk can mean reward as well. I for one don't like keeping the status quo just because there have been times coaching changes didn't work.

Who is being negative now?
 
Nice try.
It is not negative to suggest caution in replacing a hard working, honorable, loyal coach in Jim Les.
99% of the negativity here has been directed at Jim Les and the fans who support him, not the other way around. So please spare us the lecture.

This is a case that is relevant. The Toledo program has been destroyed by what has happened in these last 3 years, and there were many fans who did not want to see Joplin fired. Maybe Kowalczyk can build things back to a respectable level if he is given more time, but for now it is an embarrassment.
 
Read Joplins bio and you can't really compare his record to Les' -- http://www.utrockets.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=18000&ATCLID=1239099.

Les was barely above .500 in 2007-08 and 2009-09. This year he is 10-18. There has been a consistent record of decline in his program. Joplin, on the other hand, had finished second or better in his division in 8 of his last 10 seasons and had won 4 MAC titles; Les has never finished better than 4th. Joplin, however, had some of the same problems as Les -- poorly timed timeouts, failure to make NCAA Tournaments, declining attendance, and impatient alumni.

http://www.vandelaysports.com/basketball/articles/joplin-fired-toledo_031708.html


Toledo had the balls to try to make their program better. They were tired of settling for mediocrity and took a step to try to elevate their program to the next level. They were tired of underachieving, poor coaching decisions, declining attendance, and disenfranchised alumni. I applaud them for their efforts. Unfortunately, as you always make a point to emphasize, a coaching decision does not always work out for the best. The alternative is the status quo which, if left unattended, could become an even worse problem. Remember, no one ever achieves anything of significance by failing to try and by failing to take a chance. Successful people (and successful programs) are willing to do and try things that regular people (and programs) are unwilling or unable to do. You, better than most, should know this.
 
Both sides need to stop freaking pointing at other schools and using those examples. Bradley is its own school, its own identity. It only matters whether it will end up working for us. It doesn't matter if Toledo made a coaching change and blew up, or if James Madison made a coaching change and it paid off. Everyone can come up with examples at other schools to prove their arguments. We know that. There's 20 billion schools in D-1.

I have a feeling an increasing number of fans here are starting to grow weary of both sides of the argument. And when both sides drive someone to more neutral ground, apathy sets in. And apathy is a very dangerous thing.
 
Here were fans pleading for the return of Stan Joplin-
http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=424946

The situations are comparable. Joplin was fired mainly for not making the NCAA tournamnt. He was successful, but not wuite successful enough for some people. Notice that even in that "Bring back Stan joplin" thread, there are some who call him mediocre.
 
Da Coach said:
OK, but at Toledo, that "bottoming out" has lasted 3 seasons since the coaching change, and the end it nowhere in sight. They are not just bottoming out, but a real embarrassment. Not comparable to our situation where the team underperformed, mostly due to unprecedented injury issues.
Click to expand...


I don't follow Bradley basketball close enough to know if its a coaching problem, lack of depth, or if its just the injuries. But I'm sure missing Sam M...is killing the offense. Having a senior level guard in any level of the NCAA's is very significant.

I just never thought Bradley would of gotten last place in the Valley after losing those two guys. They looked like the much better team the other night when they played ISU.

From just reading this message board it seems as though you have a pretty divided fan base on whether or not your head coach should stay. (It seems as though its swaying towards one direction versus the other currently.) Sometimes change is needed and it could really spark a program and donations and it could get talent playing much better.

Every program is much different and as you noted Coach, coaching switches could really make things a whole lot worse, but it could make things that much better. You have to trust your University President, and AD to make that decision which will have a tremoundous impact on the University as a whole.
 
Da Coach said:
Here we see fans pleading for the return of Stan Joplin-
http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=424946

The situations are comparable. Joplin was fired mainly for not making the NCAA tournamnt. He was successful, but not quite successful enough for some people. Notice that even in that "Bring back Stan joplin" thread, there are some who call him mediocre.
Click to expand...

I hope Bradley never settles for the mediocrity that Toledo's fickle fans are so obviously willing to accept..... again. Go for the gold , I say. If you fail, try try again. Sometimes it takes massive failure before you can truly succeed. I'd rather try and fail than never try at all.
 
Da Coach said:
Nice try.
It is not negative to suggest caution in replacing a hard working, honorable, loyal coach in Jim Les.
99% of the negativity here has been directed at Jim Les and the fans who support him, not the other way around. So please spare us the lecture.

This is a case that is relevant. The Toledo program has been destroyed by what has happened in these last 3 years, and there were many fans who did not want to see Joplin fired. Maybe Kowalczyk can build things back to a respectable level if he is given more time, but for now it is an embarrassment.
Click to expand...

The case is not relevant Da Coach. They aren't even close to similar schools, with similar histories, or similar track records. Come on now.

Jim Les has been here 9 years. Not two like Joplin. Or one like Cross. Or one like Kowalczyk. Toledo doesn't have near the history, success or fan interest as Bradley.

I don't deny you have to proceed with caution when making a change. It's a big decision. I don't deny Jim Les is "hard working", "honorable" and "loyal". That's fine. So was Jim Molinari. He got fired. So was Joe Stowell. He got fired. I think any of the posters here would be "hard working", "honorable" and "loyal"...but that doesn't mean we should be coaching.

It's a business that is all about winning. You know that. This isn't a fly by night, off the cuff decision. It's five years in the making. Don't act like people are acting wild, compulsive and quickly here.

Jim Les has had plenty, plenty, plenty of time to win on a consistent level. IMO, he hasn't done that. I recognize changing coaches guarantees nothing. I am willing to take that risk.
 
TheAsianSensation said:
Both sides need to stop freaking pointing at other schools and using those examples. Bradley is its own school, its own identity. It only matters whether it will end up working for us. It doesn't matter if Toledo made a coaching change and blew up, or if James Madison made a coaching change and it paid off. Everyone can come up with examples at other schools to prove their arguments. We know that. There's 20 billion schools in D-1.

I have a feeling an increasing number of fans here are starting to grow weary of both sides of the argument. And when both sides drive someone to more neutral ground, apathy sets in. And apathy is a very dangerous thing.
Click to expand...

Great point TAS. That's all I've been trying to say. There have been times its worked, times it hasn't. Each case is unique in itself.

No one is questioning how hard Jim Les works. How good a person he is. How loyal he is. How we all wanted to see him succeed. This is not personal.

Bradley is Bradley. True fans support whatever decision the administration makes.
 
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