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Indiana State 80-BU 66

BradleyBrave said:
What is factually 'wrong' about my post?

Sticks and Egolf are both 4th year players. - TRUE - Should big men in their 4th year at the college level be able to contribute?
AW and DD are both 5th year seniors. - TRUE - Enough said.

Prosser is in his 2nd year with the program. - TRUE - He was one of the more highly regarded recruits we've landed, and has been going against Division I competition for a year. I am fine with his progress.
DSE, Eastman, and Milos all logged minutes last year. - TRUE - All 3 played significant roles at one point last year.

The only newbie where this excuse holds any water is Lemon. - TRUE - Only true freshman on the roster.

Even with the injuries we're one of the oldest, most experienced teams in the league. - TRUE

Everything I said is factual. What is misleading?
Click to expand...

"Even with the injuries we're one of the oldest, most experienced teams in the league. NEXT EXCUSE!"

I already showed you what you stated was wrong...and I only showed you two teams...need more?
 
mrcoachdude said:
BB you stated ---> "Even with the injuries we're one of the oldest, most experienced teams in the league"

that is just not true.....no excuses being made...but the fact is the fact...
Click to expand...

WL -- Freshman
JP -- Fresh.
AD -- Fresh.
DSE -- Soph.
JE -- Soph.
MK -- Soph.
CW -- Soph.
AG -- Soph. Walk-on
AT -- Jr.
WE -- Jr.

AW & DD -- The only Seniors

Not a whole lot of big game experience there.
 
Braves4Life said:
WL -- Freshman
JP -- Fresh.
AD -- Fresh.
DSE -- Soph.
JE -- Soph.
MK -- Soph.
CW -- Soph.
AG -- Soph. Walk-on
AT -- Jr.
WE -- Jr.

AW & DD -- The only Seniors

Not a whole lot of big game experience there.
Click to expand...

First, why are Andrew Davis, Charron Woods, and Aaron Ganson even mentioned in this discussion? They don't play, so they're irrelevant as far as this is concerned.

Let's be clear on this -

JP -- Fresh (2nd year of DI)
AD -- Fresh. (Doesn't play/Doesn't matter)
DSE -- Soph. (2nd year of DI, played significant minutes last year)
JE -- Soph. (2nd year of DI, played significant minutes last year)
MK -- Soph. (2nd year of DI)
CW -- Soph. (Doesn't play/Doesn't matter)
AG -- Soph. Walk-on (Doesn't play/Doesn't matter)
AT -- Jr. (4th year of DI)
WE -- Jr. (4th year of DI)

AW & DD -- The only Seniors (Both 5th year players)

Again, of players who play, Walter Lemon is the only one with the 'experience' excuse.

By continuing to use this experience crutch, you're basically saying that we should not expect two 4th year bigs to be able to contribute anything at this level, nor should we expect 2 sophomores who averaged a combined 30+ minutes a game to contribute anything either. We have 4 players with in at least their 4th year of DI, and 2 others in their 2nd year of DI who logged big minutes as freshmen. But experience is our problem? Quality depth perhaps may be a problem, but not experience.

Anyone remember this article way back in November 2009?

http://www.bradleyhoops.com/news/x255180771/Essential-ingredients-to-be-in-MVC-mix

The strengths: Depth, experience, guard play, perimeter shooting and a potential star.

The Braves’ roster hasn’t been this deep since their NCAA Sweet 16 run in 2006. Eight players have cracked the starting lineup at some point in their careers and averaged 10 or more minutes per game over an entire season. Four started at least half the games last season. Andrew Warren, who missed last year with a broken foot, started all but one game the previous season.

So I guess we had experience last year after all. :-o

And what about this article, this November?

http://www.bradleyhoops.com/news/x115985123/Bradley-fans-hopeful-of-big-season

But Bradley this season will field its oldest, most veteran team since the 2005-06 squad reached the NCAA Sweet 16 for the first time in half a century.
After further review, despite our injuries, it appears that the Sweet 16 team had less DI experience from the top 8 players.

Ruffin - 3rd year DI - 21 yrs old
Sommerville - 4th year DI - 23 yrs old
Bennett - 2nd year DI - 21 yrs old
Boogie - 2nd year DI - 22 yrs old
Andrews - 1st year DI - 21 yrs old
O'Bryant - 2nd year DI - 19 yrs old
Tauai - 3rd year DI - 20 yrs old
Franklin - 1st year DI - 20 yrs old

18 years DI experience/average age 20.875 years during NCAA Tournament.

Dunson - 4th year DI - 23 yrs old (Will be 24 on Jan 6)
Warren - 5th year DI - 23 yrs old
Egolf - 4th year DI - 21 yrs old (Will be 22 on Jan 20)
Thompson - 4th year DI - 22 yrs old
Eastman - 2nd year DI - 20 yrs old
Simms-Edwards - 2nd year DI - 19 yrs old
Prosser - 2nd year DI - 19 yrs old
Lemon - 1st year DI - 19 yrs old

24 years DI experience/average age 20.75 now, 21 by the end of January.

I'll ask one final question - If 'experience' is what is keeping us from winning, all other things being equal (injuries, etc) would we be any better with Sam Singh playing? Right now Jordan Prosser is giving us 4.0 ppg and 5.5 rpg. Last year Sam Singh gave us 1.7 ppg and 3.2 rpg.

Enough about 'experience' being the reason we aren't winning. It was a weak excuse last year and it's a weak excuse this year. You get 13 scholarships not 5, and if guys aren't ready to contribute by year 2 let alone year 4, then perhaps the issue isn't really experience at all. I don't expect us to be as good losing 2 all-conference players, but I also don't expect to be as bad as we are now, especially since reality and mathematics says we have plenty of 'experience' to compete.
 
BradleyBrave said:
First, why are Andrew Davis, Charron Woods, and Aaron Ganson even mentioned in this discussion? They don't play, so they're irrelevant as far as this is concerned.

Let's be clear on this -

JP -- Fresh (2nd year of DI)
AD -- Fresh. (Doesn't play/Doesn't matter)
DSE -- Soph. (2nd year of DI, played significant minutes last year)
JE -- Soph. (2nd year of DI, played significant minutes last year)
MK -- Soph. (2nd year of DI)
CW -- Soph. (Doesn't play/Doesn't matter)
AG -- Soph. Walk-on (Doesn't play/Doesn't matter)
AT -- Jr. (4th year of DI)
WE -- Jr. (4th year of DI)

AW & DD -- The only Seniors (Both 5th year players)

Again, of players who play, Walter Lemon is the only one with the 'experience' excuse.

By continuing to use this experience crutch, you're basically saying that we should not expect two 4th year bigs to be able to contribute anything at this level, nor should we expect 2 sophomores who averaged a combined 30+ minutes a game to contribute anything either. We have 4 players with in at least their 4th year of DI, and 2 others in their 2nd year of DI who logged big minutes as freshmen. But experience is our problem? Quality depth perhaps may be a problem, but not experience.

Anyone remember this article way back in November 2009?

http://www.bradleyhoops.com/news/x255180771/Essential-ingredients-to-be-in-MVC-mix

The strengths: Depth, experience, guard play, perimeter shooting and a potential star.

The Braves??™ roster hasn??™t been this deep since their NCAA Sweet 16 run in 2006. Eight players have cracked the starting lineup at some point in their careers and averaged 10 or more minutes per game over an entire season. Four started at least half the games last season. Andrew Warren, who missed last year with a broken foot, started all but one game the previous season.

So I guess we had experience last year after all. :-o

And what about this article, this November?

http://www.bradleyhoops.com/news/x115985123/Bradley-fans-hopeful-of-big-season

But Bradley this season will field its oldest, most veteran team since the 2005-06 squad reached the NCAA Sweet 16 for the first time in half a century.
After further review, despite our injuries, it appears that the Sweet 16 team had less DI experience from the top 8 players.

Ruffin - 3rd year DI - 21 yrs old
Sommerville - 4th year DI - 23 yrs old
Bennett - 2nd year DI - 21 yrs old
Boogie - 2nd year DI - 22 yrs old
Andrews - 1st year DI - 21 yrs old
O'Bryant - 2nd year DI - 19 yrs old
Tauai - 3rd year DI - 20 yrs old
Franklin - 1st year DI - 20 yrs old

18 years DI experience/average age 20.875 years during NCAA Tournament.

Dunson - 4th year DI - 23 yrs old (Will be 24 on Jan 6)
Warren - 5th year DI - 23 yrs old
Egolf - 4th year DI - 21 yrs old (Will be 22 on Jan 20)
Thompson - 4th year DI - 22 yrs old
Eastman - 2nd year DI - 20 yrs old
Simms-Edwards - 2nd year DI - 19 yrs old
Prosser - 2nd year DI - 19 yrs old
Lemon - 1st year DI - 19 yrs old

24 years DI experience/average age 20.75 now, 21 by the end of January.

I'll ask one final question - If 'experience' is what is keeping us from winning, all other things being equal (injuries, etc) would we be any better with Sam Singh playing? Right now Jordan Prosser is giving us 4.0 ppg and 5.5 rpg. Last year Sam Singh gave us 1.7 ppg and 3.2 rpg.

Enough about 'experience' being the reason we aren't winning. It was a weak excuse last year and it's a weak excuse this year. You get 13 scholarships not 5, and if guys aren't ready to contribute by year 2 let alone year 4, then perhaps the issue isn't really experience at all. I don't expect us to be as good losing 2 all-conference players, but I also don't expect to be as bad as we are now, especially since reality and mathematics says we have plenty of 'experience' to compete.
Click to expand...

You are 100% correct in that experience means nothing as far as several of our players go, it is sad when you cannot keep Egolf on the floor longer because every game he commits stupid fouls, Prosser is getting better but needs to get a lot better shooting free throws, A.T. has improved very little and when people believe a good game for a 6-10 4 year player is 3 points and 2 rebounds then they have 0 expectations for him, Milos supposedly is a good shooter but his stats do not back this up and we really need a 6-8 tough guy inside instead of another perimeter player, I really like Jake because of his willing to be tough and get rebounds but we really need him to also be able to knock down some perimeter shots, A.W. and DSE are both the players I expected them to be, Dodie has not been consistent and we cannot have that from a 5th year player, Maniscalso and Brown not being able to play hurt us a lot more because we do not have enough good shooters on this team because we recruited badly in that area.
 
It's a good thing statistics are actually kept on this. Here is the Valley rating by experience (DI years):

Rnk Team Exp (Nat'l rank)

1. WSU 2.33 (23)
2. MSU 2.32 (25)
3. CU 1.89 (125)
4. SIU 1.87 (131)
5. BU 1.82 (150)
6. UE 1.80 (155)
7. InSU 1.73 (180)
8. IlSU 1.68 (195)
9. UNI 1.68 (198 )
10. DU 1.37 (280)
 
squirrelgotdead said:
It's a good thing statistics are actually kept on this. Here is the Valley rating by experience (DI years):

Rnk Team Exp (Nat'l rank)

1. WSU 2.33 (23)
2. MSU 2.32 (25)
3. CU 1.89 (125)
4. SIU 1.87 (131)
5. BU 1.82 (150)
6. UE 1.80 (155)
7. InSU 1.73 (180)
8. IlSU 1.68 (195)
9. UNI 1.68 (198 )
10. DU 1.37 (280)
Click to expand...

Thanks squirrel! Good find. Of course, D1 experience doesn't mean as much to teams like UK, UNC, KU, or Duke. There, it's all about talent.
 
BradleyBrave said:
What is it all about in the MVC?
Click to expand...

Ding ding ding. Actually throwing TB into it doesn't change BU's number much either.

Seeing BU at #5 on that list in what was expected to be a probable top 3 year with everyone on board and healthy seems to indicate we would have likely been disappointed again. IMO.
 
mrcoachdude said:
didn't say anything about winning and you spun 1st...we are simply NOT the oldest most experienced team in the Valley...like you stated...
Click to expand...

We're in the top half of the MVC experience-wise according to squirrel's stat...will we finish there? More experience than over half the league.

And I said 'one of the' most experience teams, not 'THE' most experienced team. The numbers support me, whether it's the metric squirrel is using or the age and experience numbers I posted. Reynolds and Wessler have said the same thing the last two seasons heading in as well. We can go back and forth on semantics all day, the fact of the matter is we have enough experience to win, and have had enough to win year in and and year out. But we don't win, which means something or several things are missing. It's an excuse that holds little water, plain and simple.
 
The ranking also does not take into account incomplete/redshirt years, either. And by my count (which could be wrong since I'm going off the top of my head) that's 6 years not figured in. And DD adds yet another JUCO year not figured to make it 7.

So to settle the argument, you are both right, but in different ways.

Mrcoachdude is right in that, in terms of DI experience playing this year, BU is only a middling league team.

BradleyBrave is right in that, in terms of maturity, seniority and overall game experience, BU's roster is a veteran one when you consider all that doesn't count in that statistic.
 
BradleyBrave said:
We're in the top half of the MVC experience-wise according to squirrel's stat...will we finish there? More experience than over half the league.

And I said 'one of the' most experience teams, not 'THE' most experienced team. The numbers support me, whether it's the metric squirrel is using or the age and experience numbers I posted. Reynolds and Wessler have said the same thing the last two seasons heading in as well. We can go back and forth on semantics all day, the fact of the matter is we have enough experience to win, and have had enough to win year in and and year out. But we don't win, which means something or several things are missing. It's an excuse that holds little water, plain and simple.
Click to expand...

Again I am not making any excuse, never did...but ask that, when you state things are a fact...that they are a fact...and again...we are not one of the oldest most experieced teams in the Valley...since the figures from squirrel are probably based on pre-season rosters...we have dropped down a bit I would think..

your statement about "we have enough experience to win" is a different matter...talk about semantics...mercy...
 
mrcoachdude said:
Again I am not making any excuse, never did...but ask that, when you state things are a fact...that they are a fact...and again...we are not one of the oldest most experieced teams in the Valley...since the figures from squirrel are probably based on pre-season rosters...we have dropped down a bit I would think..

your statement about "we have enough experience to win" is a different matter...talk about semantics...mercy...
Click to expand...

If you go back to page 2 of this thread with people trying to explain away the poor road performance, the 'youth' excuse was brought out. Unfortunately, Indiana St is significantly younger than our Braves according to squirrel's metric.

(Also, I may be wrong, but I don't think squirrel's metric counts SM and TB, as squirrel mentioned that adding TB wouldn't change it much.)

And we do have one of the oldest, most experienced teams in the league. The metrics and age prove that. Is there any other team with a soon-to-be 24 year old point guard and a 23 year old shooting guard? :-o
 
BradleyBrave said:
If you go back to page 2 of this thread with people trying to explain away the poor road performance, the 'youth' excuse was brought out. Unfortunately, Indiana St is significantly younger than our Braves according to squirrel's metric.

(Also, I may be wrong, but I don't think squirrel's metric counts SM and TB, as squirrel mentioned that adding TB wouldn't change it much.)

And we do have one of the oldest, most experienced teams in the league. The metrics and age prove that. Is there any other team with a soon-to-be 24 year old point guard and a 23 year old shooting guard? :-o
Click to expand...

I dont know about metrics etc.

But I will tell you this...This team can't possibly be young every year.Its sort of ridiculous.

Someone that is on the youth bandwagon. Please tell me when they were last "mature" or "old"
 
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